Forums - What EXACTLY makes Thrid Strike so bad? Show all 220 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- What EXACTLY makes Thrid Strike so bad? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=14870) Posted by Lantis on 04:25:2001 10:46 PM: Parries? Kara cancelling? Why did everyone disregard TS at the beginning as "another parry fest" and now everyone seems to like it? So, comments!!! Is TS really good or bad? Posted by Big Pete Roasa on 04:25:2001 10:48 PM: I still don't like it, it's to slow for me and all that parrying crap don't hlp either Posted by BloodRiotIori on 04:25:2001 10:50 PM: i don't parry, but i think its cool Posted by BloodRiotIori on 04:25:2001 10:51 PM: oh yeah, i think double impact is better. but they're all excellent games Posted by Hentai on 04:25:2001 10:55 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis Parries? Kara cancelling? Why did everyone disregard TS at the beginning as "another parry fest" and now everyone seems to like it? So, comments!!! Is TS really good or bad? it requires t00 much o' that thinkin' jazz man. and mashin' tha buttons dont do nuthing! seriously tho, i think 3s (or the all of the sf3 games) never caught on here because people have too too intrested in the vs games and they compete with each other. it never really was in most mainstream arcades (aka local malls etc) but you'd be hard pressed to find an arcade that didnt have xvsf or sfvsmsh,mvc1 or mvc2.. the arcade owners look at it like this im sure, should i take a game with a bunch of basicly new, unknown charaters or should i take the known franchise game thats going to make me alot of money... plus the 3's are on cps3 while the vs games (up to mvc2) were on the more popular and widely used cps2, so they were cheaper to buy since they already had half of it. Posted by EndLeSS8 on 04:25:2001 11:00 PM: I dunno. I like it. I play it quite a bit, although the new characters are kinda "blah" for me. I haven't had the chance to play 2nd Impact too much, so I can't compare it to 3S, but I think overall both are good. But what I REALLY miss is Alex's "YOU CAN'T ESCAPE!!!" when he does PowerBomb. l8z Posted by Xenster on 04:25:2001 11:18 PM: 3rd strike is not a bad game, those who think it is can't parry, can't kara cancel, and more than 4 frames per character animation are too much. 3s requires practice and patience.. two things hard to come by.. 2i was also a great game, it was also faster paced, but a bit more imbalanced. Posted by dj-b13 on 04:25:2001 11:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis Parries? Kara cancelling? Why did everyone disregard TS at the beginning as "another parry fest" and now everyone seems to like it? So, comments!!! Is TS really good or bad? it makes the game interesting, i like the parrying engine. Games can be exciting... Posted by Froot Loop on 04:25:2001 11:43 PM: Well Third strike is my Favorite game... I'm not that good at it, but I think it's a great game.. BTW what do you mean by Kara? Posted by Hentai on 04:25:2001 11:45 PM: quote: Originally posted by Froot Loop Well Third strike is my Favorite game... I'm not that good at it, but I think it's a great game.. BTW what do you mean by Kara? kara-cancel is canceling a normal move into a throw. there is an article about it here. in the arcticles area i think Posted by Froot Loop on 04:25:2001 11:47 PM: Ah ok, that's Kool... I think if they put more Characters in the game, it would be better. Not like 56 characters, but maybe like 12 more people, Sagat would be cool in that game, so would Vega. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 12:08 AM: Whats wrong with 3rd Strike? Its a guessing game, not a fighter. When you play 3rd Strike its next impossible to have a real plan when playing, you have to be random to get past your opponents defense. So you have to guess whats there going to do next poke wise, 1 lucky parry from your opponent means half yourlife or a good chunk of it. To make things worse the "range" eliment common in earlier SF's is non existant in SF3 becuase it can all be eliminated by the parry. Even though some projectiles have multiple hits, it does a lick of good when you you learn the fairly easy timing and realise you can just block if your on the ground(only needing to parry when your jumping in or when your within striking range). In any given situation where a projectile could pose a threat, thats when you parry it, and the threat is instantly gone. Projectiles themselves arent too good, Ryu cant throw a jab fireball as your opponent is getting up and then apply pressure afterwards as it keeps them pinned down, the hit detecion isnt wide enough and Ryu is in too long of a recovery to do so. I forget to mention that the game is also slower then its previous title, making it even easier to parry your way out of anything. 3s does take a large amount of reactionary and technical skill to play. Its also bug free, ive never seen a bug or glitch occure in the middle of a game, ever, and there are VERY few glitches that do exist at all. If you want to embrace the game for what it is, i understand. But for me, the game feels very random. Posted by Froot Loop on 04:26:2001 12:19 AM: So what your saying is that the Unpredictablitly of the game makes it difficult to play? In other words you have to be ready for anything? Posted by Apoc on 04:26:2001 01:33 AM: quote: Originally posted by Froot Loop So what your saying is that the Unpredictablitly of the game makes it difficult to play? In other words you have to be ready for anything? Only because I'm bored. First off. The game is slow. Dashes are the only thing that brings any real speed to the game. Parries are more anticipatory than reactionary...making most "good" parries nothing more than educated guesses rather than having something to do with reflexes most often than not. The parries are done before contact now. That's just lame. Red Parries are the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. So I can be slow and block a multi-hit move...to slow to see it and parry it...but since I'm slow it's ok...while I'm blocking it I can parry and take 60% of my opponent! That is REALLY lame. If there was no lag on all special moves requiring a red parry to counter...then I would understand. Throws are prolly the stupidest thing in 3s. Nothing is worse than KNOWING you're opponent is going for a throw...then instead of doing a "push" type move like a counter throw, you bust an EX DP to cause damage only to hear "Shoryu...." And see yourself getting thrown. On a game like 3s you can literally beat players with a Kara throw and a low RH. So stupid. Not even a REAL strategy yet effective because of really stupid priorities in throws. I mean...a dp takes longer physically to activate...and you do it fast enough to nail a guy outta trying to throw you...the dper is taking ALL of the risk...only to get his dp outprioritized by the throw. I laughed when I first saw this. Until I realized it wasn't a circumstance...it's the way the game works. NO other SF has this...NONE. Closest thing is grabbing a dp with a gief spd...and you can only do that after avoiding the impact point. So timing AND range are a factor. On 3s it doesn't mean jack. Just throw. When your only option to countering a throw is to throw back causing a tech and pushing you both clear across the screen resetting the match...stupid. SF3 tech throws were always lame. I could go on...but I just got even more bored talking about a REALLY shitty game. And no EVERYONE does not like it. Top tier players dislike it in general. The game is crap at high levels...it's fun at an intermediate level. That's it. Hsien is the one player that made the game interesting since he was unknown when he started dominating. Ppl wanted to see him play other top tier players. Seriously...it seems like many love this game now to you. When really the majority hates it(here in the US) and why bother posting about a game you really couldn't care less about? And I feel somewhat saddened by the fact that B5 won't have it because US got dominated in it...seems only fair to have 3s and MVC2. But I completely understand that our top players really don't want to spend any time on the game. At least 2i was fun. Parries aren't even necessary in 3s. Speed up the game...make universal overheads a joystick motion again...make it so that you have to stand up to tech throws...make parries MATCH the hits and make the parry rhythm mimic the hits somewhat instead of an easy rhythm for everything. Get rid of auto-parrying. Make throws have less priority...imo throws should counter a block not a DP. Get rid of red parries...and get rid of those ugly brushed backgrounds like dudley's. Ugh that shit doesn't meld with the characters at all imo. Though I actually like the color schemes of 3s as opposed to the yellow/reds of 2i. I LOVED 2i...3s made me forget why. It's sad that they ended the series on such a sour note. Apoc. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 01:35 AM: Difficult? Its random. If every move your opponent makes is sapposedly unpredictable than that would mean it would be impossible to develop a strategy. Like i said, the game takes a good amount of reactional and technical skill, but its next impossible to develop a working strategy, you just have to keep bieng random, not letting your opponent second guess you or get lucky and gain the mommentum of the match. Thats how 3s plays. Oh and Apoc described 3s perfectly, thats what you can expect from the game. quote: Originally posted by Froot Loop So what your saying is that the Unpredictablitly of the game makes it difficult to play? In other words you have to be ready for anything? Posted by Froot Loop on 04:26:2001 01:44 AM: Hehe, even after all that. Which I totally agree with you guys on most things, I still like 3rd strike better, it seems a "Little" more realistic quote on little. I wasn't fond of Second Impact though, played it like once... Posted by mondu_the_fat on 04:26:2001 02:26 AM: quote: Originally posted by Hentai plus the 3's are on cps3 while the vs games (up to mvc2) were on the more popular and widely used cps2, so they were cheaper to buy since they already had half of it. There's truth to this. Arcade owners I've talked to also complained that the CPS3 was hard to maintain. If the board broke down off to the suppliers it went instead of being repaired by their tech staff. Posted by Froot Loop on 04:26:2001 02:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by mondu_the_fat There's truth to this. Arcade owners I've talked to also complained that the CPS3 was hard to maintain. If the board broke down off to the suppliers it went instead of being repaired by their tech staff. So is Third Strike the only game on a CPS3 board? Posted by EndLeSS8 on 04:26:2001 02:41 AM: Ahhh Kamui-san! I fight you in your home stage! Ready? GO! LOL! Nice to seeya here. Anyhow, what you say about 3rd strike is true, but look at it in another way: I wouldn't call it random, I would call it many options, as well as mind games. I don't know what level I'm at in 3rd Strike, but I have beaten the best guy here at my arcade (He's got like the top 3 scores here, over 7 million, MSF) Of course, he has beaten me wayyyyyyyyyyyy more times though. The game is open ended, but I understand what you and Apoc mean when you talk about expert level play. Seriously, you can say that for a lot of games, including KOF2K. BTW, Kamui, yer wrong on that point of the Americans owning the Japanese at Super Turbo. Check the stats again...I did today. The Japanese won like about 60% of the Super Turbo matches. l8z Posted by DJ Ren on 04:26:2001 02:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis Parries? Kara cancelling? Why did everyone disregard TS at the beginning as "another parry fest" and now everyone seems to like it? So, comments!!! Is TS really good or bad? Third Strike... The game is too slow.. and not smoothe at all. At times it seems like the characters are jerking around when they're actually kicking or whatnot. It also seems that it's much more difficult to do specials in 3S, but that could be attributed to the poor maintenance of the machine at the local arcade because nobody ever goes near that dark corner that houses the 3S machine. The only people that acutally give it an occasional glance are the ones that are shooting pool or something. But yea, overall 3S just seems too unrefined. It definitely never caught over here in calgary. Posted by LOLO on 04:26:2001 02:50 AM: 3rd Strike is good... Posted by TS on 04:26:2001 02:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by EndLeSS8 BTW, Kamui, yer wrong on that point of the Americans owning the Japanese at Super Turbo. Check the stats again...I did today. The Japanese won like about 60% of the Super Turbo matches. Short answer: Not all of America's best went, and the tourney was single elimination as opposed to double-elim, which is how most big U.S. SF tourneys go. So you have a much, much smaller chance to learn from your mistakes. Posted by EndLeSS8 on 04:26:2001 03:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by TS Short answer: Not all of America's best went, and the tourney was single elimination as opposed to double-elim, which is how most big U.S. SF tourneys go. So you have a much, much smaller chance to learn from your mistakes. Don't take this as an offense, but so are you saying that if it was double-elim, the US would have owned Japan? Or would it go 50/50? l8z Posted by Froot Loop on 04:26:2001 03:14 AM: That's strange at the arcade I use to play at, Only the Pro's played Third strike... Maybe that's why I have so much respect for the game. Cause I didn't get beat down by constant throws and what not, I got beat down by Skillz!!! YAH PHILLY!!??! Posted by TS on 04:26:2001 03:22 AM: I think had the U.S.'s best been at the Japan tourney, and had it been double-elim, (5vs5, instead of 4vs5) we might have beat them 60/40 instead of the other way around. Wouldn't go so far as to say we would have owned them. Posted by TalbainEric on 04:26:2001 03:26 AM: Probably because of parrying,I never thought it was a good idea to bring that into the Street Fighter series. Also,lack of GOOD characters. Only ones that interested me were the cool Dudley,Ibuki,Urien and Gill. Posted by Froot Loop on 04:26:2001 03:30 AM: quote: Originally posted by TalbainEric Also,lack of GOOD characters. Only ones that interested me were the cool Dudley,Ibuki,Urien and Gill. I have to agree on that. As much as I like the game, I think they should have brought over some of the older players again. Posted by kadath on 04:26:2001 03:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by Kamui Whats wrong with 3rd Strike? Its a guessing game, not a fighter. As opposed to a game like MvC2, where most people rely on traps and repetitive patterns?! Not to mention all the button mashing.....Third Strike requires strategy and mind games to overcome your opponent, not mindless & repetitive patterns, "cheap" characters, and button mashing. Posted by Strider_ShiedoShaw on 04:26:2001 04:05 AM: I was waiting on that! It's really amazing when you think about it. Now that mvc2 has appeared, every other fighting game that doesn't rely on hoaky traps, cheap supers, etc, is just random nonsense that doesn't take a game plan. Right... There is nothing like the feeling you get from mastering your favorite 3s character and obliterating the comp. Learning from you mistakes, developing new techniques, mastering the art of perfect counters, etc. All of those joys can be found in 3s and even better, 2i. People that refer to 3s as mearly 'ok' or even 'weak', simply suck at the game. I know its frustrating to not be able to do ahvb and traps and whatnot, but don't blame the game cause you suck at anything not Mvc2. 3s is slow, that's true, but not to the point where you can't enjoy it. The speed is perfect as far as i'm concerned. And the characters, while having lame personalities, have great techs to master. It's not just a one dimensional game. 3s is great! Get it! Posted by BarrelO on 04:26:2001 04:07 AM: quote: Originally posted by kadath As opposed to a game like MvC2, where most people rely on traps and repetitive patterns?! Not to mention all the button mashing.....Third Strike requires strategy and mind games to overcome your opponent, not mindless & repetitive patterns, "cheap" characters, and button mashing. Are you playing the same game I am? Last time I checked, 3S was perhaps the least strategic game out there for the reasons that Kamui and Apoc mentioned. Look, if you love the game, that's fine. But don't make all these unfounded claims about the game and try to make it into something it's not. Because you just end up discrediting yourself. And I'm sorry, but I can't resist responding to your MvC2 comments. All I'll say is this: If you're losing to button mashers and people who do the same thing over and over again, you suck. Period. Posted by Vega on 04:26:2001 04:20 AM: 3rd Strike isn't bad at all. It's a really great game. The speed is a little slow at times which can be a bad point but now that there is parrying, no air blocking, and all what I would consider 'command throws' the game has even more added strategy to it. Of course, we all know that if someone were to say that 3rd Strike was a bad game, it's probably because Vega isn't in it ;D Posted by SF Rules on 04:26:2001 04:26 AM: 60% of the character designs are lame. It was like they were spending to much time with the Resident Evil team. Posted by Shuzer on 04:26:2001 04:33 AM: One thing to note about 3S: In a CTF tournament report, I remeber reading about how Sabin was owning people with about... 5 moves. Chun Li: kara throw, low rh, low forward, back fierce, II super. CTF is one of the best arcades for SF3 comp in the US. Anything wrong here? kadath: If you played MvC2 against good comp, you'd know how hard it is to keep traps going on people. Escape spots on traps can be found, or can be made. Repetitive patterns? I don't see any repetitive pattern in what happens to be one of(if not THE) most popular team right now, Mag/Storm. Strider_: "Learning from you mistakes, developing new techniques, mastering the art of perfect counters, etc. All of those joys can be found in 3s and even better, 2i." I only have one problem here. You mention 2I. I can't comment on 3S, as I got sick of the series after 2I. But in 2I, the game was dominated by 2 characters. I see no learning from mistakes, developing new tech, any of that in 2I when Ibuki or Akuma are just gonna kick your ass anyway. On the ST thing: The tourney was Japanese rules(single match, single character), resulting in some of the results. And if I recall correctly, many of the matches in ST(and A3) were very close. Japan got the W though, which is what mattered(and what showed). If it were double elim best of 3, and you could switch characters, then things could change a little. Posted by Akuma2002 on 04:26:2001 06:11 AM: i like this game,the only real gripe i have is the amount of charcters there should be some more,but other than that this game is great Posted by Havoc911 on 04:26:2001 06:36 AM: 3S is a chess match. To people that say parrying is random, you're just wrong. To parry effectively, you have to understand the game, understand your opponent's character, and understand your opponent. Strategy plays a huge role in 3S. If you don't have a good strategy, you will get parried all day long. To me, the parry is a great thing because it eliminates stupid commonly used tactics. You have to come up with your own play style to be good in 3S. The game is also pretty well balanced. Other than Chun-Li and Yun(whom aren't that much better than the others), all the other characters are good (except Sean). Most characters just need some effort, but they can all be turned into formidable characters, which can't be said about most SF games or MvC2, and can't even be said about 2I (Ibuki, Sean, Akuma). Third Strike is more of a mind game than any other SF IMO. Truly mastering this game is much more satisfying than mastering MvC2, or any of the post ST SFs IMO. Posted by Apoc on 04:26:2001 10:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Havoc911 3S is a chess match. To people that say parrying is random, you're just wrong. To parry effectively, you have to understand the game, understand your opponent's character, and understand your opponent. Strategy plays a huge role in 3S. If you don't have a good strategy, you will get parried all day long. To me, the parry is a great thing because it eliminates stupid commonly used tactics. You have to come up with your own play style to be good in 3S. The game is also pretty well balanced. Other than Chun-Li and Yun(whom aren't that much better than the others), all the other characters are good (except Sean). Most characters just need some effort, but they can all be turned into formidable characters, which can't be said about most SF games or MvC2, and can't even be said about 2I (Ibuki, Sean, Akuma). Third Strike is more of a mind game than any other SF IMO. Truly mastering this game is much more satisfying than mastering MvC2, or any of the post ST SFs IMO. OMG! LOL. err...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. More of a mind game huh? Ok. Apparently you didn't hear that at the highest levels(JAPAN) parries aren't used too often. Daigo himself, I've heard, uses a fierce uppercut when it would be a parry opportunity. Why not parry then dp? Seriously...you are playing at the intermediate level. Which has already been said to be fun somewhat. By all means play it. You'll lose to the elite when they are a year rusty. Comparing 3s to chess? Then saying it has more mind games than any other SF? You obviously equate mind games with guessing. Chess is not guessing. Most SFs have strategic mind games. As far as games go...3s is a great game. As far as SF goes 3s is dirt imo. But I've always liked SF for competition. I'm sure it's a mind game with friends...you see exactly how eachother plays so you can parry more often because your guesses are more educated. Oh! but wait...they might not do the same thing this time because they know you've seen it plenty and might parry so lets attack a different way! I really don't have anything to say here at the moment. I just had to say SOMEthing after the whole "chess and other SFs" thing. Too bad your opinion isn't shared on the whole(with 3s being the least entered tourney since...since...damn! I can't remember the last game that died so early! Please consider this as babble. Your comments just left me dumbfounded. Excuse this. Apoc. Posted by LOLO on 04:26:2001 01:00 PM: damn... this thread turned into another parrying is bad thread~~ parrying is not bad... if ppl think that the parrying system ruin the game coz it can break every attacks u throw at good parriers, u are wrong~~ if ur opponent can parrying most of ur attacks like crazy, that means u are just soooo predictable and he know exactly what u are going to do next~~ so he's gonna win anywayz even w/o the parrying system since there are always move to counter ur attacks~~ the parrying systerm is just an addition to the normal style of fighting games~~ and it's good coz it provides the game w/ alot more options~~ so plz... stop giving urself any more excuses of parrying ruin the game... if u lose u lose, there's nthg bad... Posted by Apoc on 04:26:2001 02:00 PM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by LOLO [B]damn... this thread turned into another parrying is bad thread~~ " Let me stop you right there. I realize your english may not be THAT great but, you obviously have misunderstood what I was saying...if indeed this is in reply. I like parrying...it's just not really necessary to bother even using 90% of the time in 3s. I don't fear parries! lol You need to read more carefully. There are some gay features in the parry system of 3s. Please by all means parry If you think that's a really good strategy. But in all honesty guys that play for the parry are the same guys that lose to 2 move Ryu...cr.rh and kara throw. You MUST be replying to someone else. Apoc. Posted by BillyKane on 04:26:2001 02:48 PM: His English sound pretty good to me... And Third Strike is my favorite fighting game right now. Parries are a great addition in my opinion. Who said you had to use parrying all the time anyway? If you can win without using them, then more power to you. Parrying isn't the only thing in the game, it's just an option. No one is forcing you to parry... But the game is about strategy. You need to find a way NOT to get parried... That's strategy. Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 03:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc I'm sure it's a mind game with friends...you see exactly how eachother plays so you can parry more often because your guesses are more educated. Oh! but wait...they might not do the same thing this time because they know you've seen it plenty and might parry so lets attack a different way! Oh no, god forbid people should attack a different way! Seriously though, the idea is that you should be ready for a parry, if it's not needed, don't do it and take the offensive instead. Parries simply equalize the ability to play defensively and offensively, most people are just used to playing mostly offensive. It is a mind game, just not the "get out of my trap" mind game that MvC2 has. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 06:55 PM: Hey Endless, why arent you around at www.neo-geo.com? "I wouldn't call it random, I would call it many options, as well as mind games. I don't know what level I'm at in 3rd Strike, but I have beaten the best guy here at my arcade (He's got like the top 3 scores here, over 7 million, MSF) Of course, he has beaten me wayyyyyyyyyyyy more times though." Just keep playing, when you reach a certain level you will understand why we dislike the game. KOF has the same problem to a small extent becuase of rolls, but no where nearly as bad as SF3. "BTW, Kamui, yer wrong on that point of the Americans owning the Japanese at Super Turbo. Check the stats again...I did today. The Japanese won like about 60% of the Super Turbo matches." Seth Killian lost all of his matches. We for the most part would have gone 50/50 or won if Seth hadnt lost all of his games. No insult to Seth as he could probably take %90 of this forum down in ST, but there were more qualified players that could have gone in his place(though the didnt have a choice at the time). Posted by ShinEFF on 04:26:2001 07:08 PM: BAD!? Ack.. You people... I've seen people complain about the fact that 1. The games too hard 2. It's unpredictable 3. Parrys. 4. see all of the above.. In a "real fight" (real life folks, I repeat REAL LIFE) You have the ability to "parry" attacks, and you don't see people sprinting around each other. In a "REAL" fight the person with the best reflexes (parry ability?) and game plan (unpredicablity?) wins the fight. As far as stratagy goes, I havn't seen a better fighter. With the advent of the parry engine this game is twice as realistic. Me and my "Street Fighter crew" win/lose round after round becuase of time expireing. That's what I call a fighter!! Most 'real' fights come down to a judges score card anyhow, they don't depend on a KO. badpoints? Sure, every game's got em.. The story line is WAY to cryptic and non-exsistant. And SAGAT IS NOT IN THE GAME!!!!! But other then that SF3 owns. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 07:11 PM: Theres nothing mindless about the patterns in MvC2, NOTHING. There is a brain behind those traps, and any worthwhile player can get out of those same traps. SF3 is the truly mindless game, you just dont know it yet becuase your a newbie, every intermediate SF3 player loves the game, the onyl experts that i know of on this entire site that still like SF3 are Mopreme and Hsien, Mopreme knowing it has obvious problems but loves the game for what it is. Let me ask you something, when your playing 3s with the chr of your choice, whats your strategy with that chr? You dont have one. You CANT have one, becuase that would lead to repetition and that would lead to a loss. You have to be random in SF3. Players with a real strategy behind them lose. Its the same reason why Remy isnt considered a good character and why Chun li and Yun are. Remy has to have a plan to win, and Remy's plans all involve his Light of virtue. Since his Light of Virtue poses 0 threat becuase of parries, Remy cant form a strategy, thus cant win very many games. Watch any SF3 match, ANY. Nobody has a plan, or a very good one(plans in SF3 range from "im gonna land this combo as many times as possible(Yun)" too im land this super as many times as possible") they are randomly throwing pokes high and low trying to get past the opposing players defense, fake outs and such. If your trying to use a real strategy then your not winning, fact not opinion. quote: Originally posted by kadath As opposed to a game like MvC2, where most people rely on traps and repetitive patterns?! Not to mention all the button mashing.....Third Strike requires strategy and mind games to overcome your opponent, not mindless & repetitive patterns, "cheap" characters, and button mashing. Posted by War Destroyer on 04:26:2001 07:17 PM: quote: Originally posted by kadath As opposed to a game like MvC2, where most people rely on traps and repetitive patterns?! Not to mention all the button mashing.....Third Strike requires strategy and mind games to overcome your opponent, not mindless & repetitive patterns, "cheap" characters, and button mashing. 3rd strike has traps in it as well. Urien has some good corner traps as well as dudley and oro. Akuma has a very vicious trap too. My friend has a nasty stungun headbutt corner trap with alex. NOTE: most fighting games have corner traps Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 07:17 PM: Oh please the "real life" argument deosnt hold water. In real life people dont throw "wave motion fists" at each other and in real life the screen deosnt flash when i throw my shoe at someone and call it a "super art". Good fighting games do allow you to use a great deal of strategy. Your playing a game, something that allows you to escape "life" as you know it. Defending the game becuase it is random and then calling it "realistic" deosnt change the idea that the players playing it are very much bieng random(you have to be). Every game contains a great deal of confusions tactics and such to win, but the also require a plan as that players framework to be successful, in SF3 you just cant do that.... quote: Originally posted by ShinEFF BAD!? Ack.. You people... I've seen people complain about the fact that 1. The games too hard 2. It's unpredictable 3. Parrys. 4. see all of the above.. In a "real fight" (real life folks, I repeat REAL LIFE) You have the ability to "parry" attacks, and you don't see people sprinting around each other. In a "REAL" fight the person with the best reflexes (parry ability?) and game plan (unpredicablity?) wins the fight. As far as stratagy goes, I havn't seen a better fighter. With the advent of the parry engine this game is twice as realistic. Me and my "Street Fighter crew" win/lose round after round becuase of time expireing. That's what I call a fighter!! Most 'real' fights come down to a judges score card anyhow, they don't depend on a KO. badpoints? Sure, every game's got em.. The story line is WAY to cryptic and non-exsistant. And SAGAT IS NOT IN THE GAME!!!!! But other then that SF3 owns. Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 07:20 PM: Kamui, I give you props, you seem like a cool person, but you REALIZE that you're labeling unpredictability in a fight as a bad thing. The game was designed so that every character has some effective way to get around an opponents defense, I mean, all a parry is, is a different way to counter a whiffed attack. As for red parries, they make more sense than you might think, if Ken hits me with a Shoryureppa, and I block, I see no point in me taking the extra block damage from his failure to connect, as such, in between uppercuts I'll red parry and attack. As for throwing, well yeah, it sucks in this game. I usually play with throws off Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 07:25 PM: quote: Originally posted by JedahZero Oh no, god forbid people should attack a different way! Seriously though, the idea is that you should be ready for a parry, if it's not needed, don't do it and take the offensive instead. Parries simply equalize the ability to play defensively and offensively, most people are just used to playing mostly offensive. It is a mind game, just not the "get out of my trap" mind game that MvC2 has. You keep refering to mind games when there simpl guessing games. You realise that if one player jumps in ready to parry and the other is ready to parry the first person to attack loses. Both players have to guess whats going to happen. These arent mind games, one player isnt manipulating anybody mentaly, its a guess. Your also missing the point. Yes, you dont parry useless crap for no reason, like when your getting up for instance, you dont parry, you block low and watch for a throw or a overhead which are fairly easy to see comming, trying to parry is just lessoning your chances of bieng successful. But, parrys still eliminate the range game completely, and reduce the game to only close quarters, which ends up leading the players back to there random offense again. Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 07:30 PM: well, everyone keeps saying how parries limit the range game of the game, but in essence, at long range, what is the difference between parrying and blocking? It's just that pixel of block damage that the opponent takes, in which case, you're saying parries are bad because they eliminate long range block damage. uhhh... I can't agree with that. Posted by Xenster on 04:26:2001 07:31 PM: MVC2 and 3s are completely different games, the only thing that binds them are the fact that they fall under the same genre. MVC2 is indeed a lot of trapping and keepaway, but it's also rushdowns, combos, and several other things. I enjoy playing both these games. 3s does not SUCK and is not a mindless game. Yes, it's a lot of guess work and it can get stressful. There's a good reason that 3s is so damned popular in Japan and that they are better than the US at it by such a large margin.. and if you've seen the tapes and think that the US only lost by a bit, you don't know 3s at all. That Ken player attacked without worry to his own health and wasn't it funny how he ended all his matches with a dragon punch? no... of course he wasn't playing around... right? That Yun player wasn't even the best Yun in Japan, so what does that tell you? BTW: all that "guesswork" in 3s was the downfall of the US because they are so used to hand cheating and because although the US has developed 3s gameplay, we aren't yet used to paying such close attention to the frames of animation, especially at the volume that are involved with 3s.. if you don't believe me, try and find a copy of hte Japanese 3s strategy guide.. a frame by frame strat guide. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 07:33 PM: You play with throws off??? That makes things even worse, now you only have to guess 1 or 2 ways, high or low. Unpredictability is a given in any fighter when your in close quarters, but a good fighting game also lets you have a real strategy as the players framework, unpredictability bieng a plus for that player. Parries are not just a counter to a whiffed attack(i must tell you though that that statement makes little sense as whiffed attack has to miss, no offense to you.) parries are your answer to any real pressure problem with the exception of throws(another reason why SF3 often reduces to a throw fest). Having 1 answer to 99% of the problems in the game is pretty dumb. quote: Originally posted by JedahZero Kamui, I give you props, you seem like a cool person, but you REALIZE that you're labeling unpredictability in a fight as a bad thing. The game was designed so that every character has some effective way to get around an opponents defense, I mean, all a parry is, is a different way to counter a whiffed attack. As for red parries, they make more sense than you might think, if Ken hits me with a Shoryureppa, and I block, I see no point in me taking the extra block damage from his failure to connect, as such, in between uppercuts I'll red parry and attack. As for throwing, well yeah, it sucks in this game. I usually play with throws off Posted by TS on 04:26:2001 07:38 PM: I think the point Apoc was trying to make, is that the better you get at the game, the more it devolves into Dash throw overhead sweep With nothing else being nearly as important. Hell, go watch those Hsien vs Mopreme matches, and you can see what he's talking about. I personally am in the middle about the game, being at sort of an intermediate level. I don't like the air parries though. Posted by Kamui on 04:26:2001 07:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by JedahZero well, everyone keeps saying how parries limit the range game of the game, but in essence, at long range, what is the difference between parrying and blocking? It's just that pixel of block damage that the opponent takes, in which case, you're saying parries are bad because they eliminate long range block damage. uhhh... I can't agree with that. They also eliminate the block stun from a blocked projectile,and the push back, which is very important. Everytime you block a Light of Virtue from Remy he recovers before you even leave the block stun from the projectile, this is important for his lock down techniques as he gets the first attack anytime you block a Sonic Boom(even if you are blocking i could then vary high or low). But that all deosnt matter, you can parry it all. Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 07:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by Kamui You play with throws off??? That makes things even worse, now you only have to guess 1 or 2 ways, high or low. Unpredictability is a given in any fighter when your in close quarters, but a good fighting game also lets you have a real strategy as the players framework, unpredictability bieng a plus for that player. Parries are not just a counter to a whiffed attack(i must tell you though that that statement makes little sense as whiffed attack has to miss, no offense to you.) parries are your answer to any real pressure problem with the exception of throws(another reason why SF3 often reduces to a throw fest). Having 1 answer to 99% of the problems in the game is pretty dumb. Alright, well, first off, by whiffed, I simply meant didn't connect, it was just easier to type whiffed (yeah, I'm a lazy bastard). I was hoping that would be implied. As for turning throws off, it removes an attack which is simply more advantageous and easier to pull off than most other attacks, removing the throw fest problem. And SF3 isn't a game of pressure, it's a game of technique. I mean sure, I could randomly poke high and low, and I would do some damage, but then the other guy could back dash away, parry my pathetic fireball game, then dash back in to punish me. Parries don't limit your strategy, they broaden it. You now need a strategy for any and every instance, as well as good timing and reflexes. Posted by War Destroyer on 04:26:2001 07:49 PM: quote: Originally posted by JedahZero well, everyone keeps saying how parries limit the range game of the game, but in essence, at long range, what is the difference between parrying and blocking? It's just that pixel of block damage that the opponent takes, in which case, you're saying parries are bad because they eliminate long range block damage. uhhh... I can't agree with that. Parries eliminate block stun. Which most people (my self included) use to pressure other opponents in to making mistakes. Posted by ssj4sonvegeta on 04:26:2001 07:54 PM: its not that bad of a game to me I think its great Posted by Lantis on 04:26:2001 08:02 PM: I think that reference to "tournament level" or "expert level" playing is quite relative. But it has its' pros or cons. For instance, not everyone aspires to be a tournament ass kicker, and sometimes not even know what kind of crap is going on the expert level of playing (so maybe they don't resort to throws that much because they think that they're not as useful). But on the other hand, after reading stuff which happens in tournament, you can just hope to wonder if you can get any better. You can still play on your intermediate level, but you KNOW that something terribly wrong is going on in the game, choose to ignore it, and when the time of truth comes, you'll regret not having paid attention to the strategy tips placed here... In other words...how many players can attain the "tournament level" skill in order to find the faults of a game? Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 08:07 PM: Lantis, I might be able to attain that so-called expert level, but in a way, I choose not to. I really just play the game for fun, because it is a LOT of fun to play. Me and my friends follow the (now ancient) rule of "no throws" and to be honest, I really can't see what everyone's complaining about, you should be able to decide to parry when an attack is coming, you shouldn't have to "be ready for it" it is, after all, only a tap of the joystick. Posted by TS on 04:26:2001 08:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by JedahZero well, everyone keeps saying how parries limit the range game of the game, but in essence, at long range, what is the difference between parrying and blocking? It's just that pixel of block damage that the opponent takes, in which case, you're saying parries are bad because they eliminate long range block damage. uhhh... I can't agree with that. Just to have a third person respond to this post... They destroy the range game. It's not just the block damage, it's the fact that you can pretty much ignore an attack. In other SF games, if someone throws a fireball at you, at any range, you have to do something about it. You can: Jump straight up, dodging it (but giving them time to close in if they chose to Jump backward, dodging it in some cases (but be contributing to cornering yourself, and again, giving the opponent more time Jump forward and either dodge it or go for a counter attack (you either gain momentum and a chance to do some damage, or risk fireball/DP, depending on the situation) Stand there and block (negating the fireball, but you've been pushed back a little, took a little bit of block damage, and again the opponent is pretty much free to do whatever they want depending on the projectile and the range) Be hit (erm. pretty much the same as above) Counter with a move of your own (Lariat, fireball, teleport. Varies a fair amount depending on the move) In the SF3 games, you usually just parry. You take zero block damage, you're completely safe, you don't betray your position... in short, nobody DOES anything. Projectiles as a whole are no longer an issue unless you count that weird Urien thing, or the Akuma overhead trap. And since everybody isn't Dhalsim, projectiles are pretty much the best way you could attack while at long range. Simple question- what can you do in 3S, with anyone, outside of close range? I don't play the game much, but outside of a couple of mid range things, the answer seems to be basically nothing. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 04:26:2001 08:10 PM: quote: Originally posted by Kamui 3s does take a large amount of reactionary and technical skill to play. Its also bug free, ive never seen a bug or glitch occure in the middle of a game, ever, and there are VERY few glitches that do exist at all. If you want to embrace the game for what it is, i understand. But for me, the game feels very random. I agree with everything that kamui and apoc said, and they both know what they're talking about, and they're both tournament players. Whereas most people who do like 3S aren't. I used to love it to death, but once I got good enough, I realized that I was basically just hitting buttons while randomly crouching or standing, and taking every opportunity to throw, and hardly even thinking about what I was doing. The only tournament players that I know who still like the game are mopreme, Hsien, and Sabin. Maybe a few others. But that's not a whole lot of people. Tell you what - move to Texas or New York, and play 3S seriously in the only two states that still play it - you'll see what Kamui and Apoc mean very quickly. Posted by JedahZero on 04:26:2001 08:17 PM: and yet again, a game comes down to one thing, the people who play it. Depending on who you play against, your opinion of the game will vary. It's one thing to be an "expert" but it's a completely different thing to do whatever is required for a win. This ruined MvC2 for me, but since I play 3S with cool people all the time, the game is still fun. and TS, to answer your question, it depends on the character. I would hope that a semi-decent player would rather counter your attack than sit on the other side of the screen and parry it, and there are several things you can do with this, such as your basic jump attack, teleporting or flipping with akuma, twelve's dive attack, any EXed fireball, etc. Posted by Don Knotts on 04:26:2001 08:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite I agree with everything that kamui and apoc said, and they both know what they're talking about, and they're both tournament players. Whereas most people who do like 3S aren't. I used to love it to death, but once I got good enough, I realized that I was basically just hitting buttons while randomly crouching or standing, and taking every opportunity to throw, and hardly even thinking about what I was doing. The better you get at any game, the more the fighting style tends to devolve. Both sides know what things will work, and what things definatley wont. The list of things that might work get smaller and smaller as skill increases. Just look at a newbei. They'll try anything, because they have no prior knowladge of what style of play might be effective. And they have the most fun too. This concept of "too much skill and desire to win makes for no fun" is true of alot of other things besides videogames. Alot of my friends are musicians and/or artist. When they first started, they were very experimental, trying anything out that their medium could do. But after a few years, everything they do started to look the same, or sound the same. Sure, it was better skilled, but pretty boring, and they were pretty board. It was because they discovered that there are just a few types of drawing styles, or music styles, that people want to pay to see or hear. Once you know that only a few things might work, and everything else wont, it becomes as bad as math homework. Most gave up their art for something new and undiscovered. The same thing happens with games. Thats how Capcom can get away with making so many semi-sequels. A new, undiscovered game engine...what could be better. Posted by mikeMenace on 04:26:2001 08:49 PM: i wish i didn't have to but, i must. i agree with Apoc n' kamui. (wuz up, Apoc) the game was ruined for the very reasons apoc stated in his first post. the game becomes this very unlikable at expert levels of play. second impact was sooo much better. in trying to elevated the SF3 system they managed to ruin the whole thing. had they just added characters, and improve the "look" of the game, it would be so much more liked. backward dashes are cheap, they cancel recovery, and promote "hit n' run" style gameplay.(turns the game into a "snacthfest") imo, Capcom should now follow examples from other game engines,(such as arc systems's GGX) and penalize your super bar for back dashes, have a guard crush, reward for forward dashing(superbar again). there are other elements to this game imo that promote higher levels of play that Capcom should look at, maybe even damage scaling for players w/backdash too much and block too much.(just a thought, i could be wrong) i personally like the game more than the whole vs. series, don't like the whole aircombo infinite crap, imo MvC2 is big cluster fuck, i respect those who like it and the reasons they like it. it's not for me. i not really into alpha, didn't like the scale plus little kitty-hit damage. SF3 imo is still the most aesthetic, but 3s leaves a lot more to be desired. Posted by LOLO on 04:26:2001 08:50 PM: lol Don Knotts, o well... my math exam = everythg doesn't work~~ hehehe... yea i see ur point like if u getting better on sthg u'll starts to get bored w/ it since there won't be too many options~~ but seriously, i think 3rd Strike is still an interesting game when comparing w/ CvS~~ ppl thinks CvS interesting, but i really don't see how interesting can it be by abusing c.Short~~ Posted by LOLO on 04:26:2001 08:54 PM: mikeMenace... yea a guard crush in 3rd Strike would be cool... but not to penalize super meter since back dash is one of the thing that cause ppl's attack to whiff~~ and it's sad not to have any super to counter~~ Posted by Don Knotts on 04:26:2001 09:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by LOLO lol Don Knotts, o well... my math exam = everythg doesn't work~~ hehehe... yea i see ur point like if u getting better on sthg u'll starts to get bored w/ it since there won't be too many options~~ but seriously, i think 3rd Strike is still an interesting game when comparing w/ CvS~~ ppl thinks CvS interesting, but i really don't see how interesting can it be by abusing c.Short~~ I actually play 3S alot, because I'm an intermediate player at best. I just pretend parries aren't in the game, and play in basicly a SSF2T style. It's really a fun, well balanced game (except for twelve). And I haven't even touched CvsS yet. I have a personal boycott against games that don't have any new characters in them. I don't want Capcom to think they can get away with it. But I look forward to using the new guys that will (hopefully) be in CvsS2 Posted by EndLeSS8 on 04:26:2001 10:13 PM: I agree with Don Knotts. Anyhow, Kamui, I see your point about projectiles and such, but again, I have to point out timing and mind games. Maybe I'm wrong, but here's what I mean: I use Urien. A LOT. I like him. I don't give a crap if the guy parries my Metallic Sphere, and in fact, it's better if they do. Usually in the ground games, I'm about 3 character lengths away from my opponent and I throw one out, and the followup options are endless... I'm sure you understand what I mean, but unless the guy knows 100% sure of what you are gonna do, I honestly don't think he can parry everything. I've played SF2 to death since it came out in 89. With parrying, non-combos actually DO make a diff in SF3. Before, everyone comboed their stuff eg. Dwn MK, into HadoKen. Now, what I like about the mind games is that you don't need to combo everything...you can go Dwn MK, then a Hadoken, to mess up the parry timing. At least that works for me. Ohh, and about KOF's rolls...in high end 98 play, forward rolls are useless. Just to inform, not to insult: KOF98 tourney in HK, no one did forward rolls, no one did jumps. That's why I agree with Knotts. The thing that bothers me about SF3, is the priorities of the moves. Since there are so many damn frames, the priorities are really screwy IMO. Alex's JP's are too damn good. Anyhow, Offensive style is my game, and I understand how parries can screw that up. l8z Posted by DJ Ren on 04:26:2001 10:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by LOLO lol Don Knotts, o well... my math exam = everythg doesn't work~~ hehehe... yea i see ur point like if u getting better on sthg u'll starts to get bored w/ it since there won't be too many options~~ but seriously, i think 3rd Strike is still an interesting game when comparing w/ CvS~~ ppl thinks CvS interesting, but i really don't see how interesting can it be by abusing c.Short~~ When compared to MvC2 CvS is much more of a mind game. Because 3S was such a bust in most places, most arcades don't even have that machine lying around anymore. That's why CvS seems interesting. And CvS isn't just about c.Short It's much more tactic involved than MvC2 which I can agree to some extent is pretty much a 'learn how to do 1 trap and be able to maintain that trap and you'll have a really good chance at winning' game. But ultimately in the end CvS has a little better game engine than 3S. 3S just became an all out throw fest in many cases because of kara-cancelling, those get boring real fast. I personally never got into 3S, I liked 2I, but 3S... just didn't do antying for me. Posted by Hentai on 04:26:2001 10:31 PM: a quick comment on 'levels' of players. i've fought Alex Valle, Hsien Chang and Mike Watson at 3s (alex and mike at shgl, hsien back at einstines in austin). now i can't think of a "higher" level of player at 3s, atleast here in the states. and i always had fun playing 3s. Posted by LOLO on 04:26:2001 10:40 PM: DJ Ren... u mean the throwing system in 3rd Strike ruin the game... not really... coz there's always throw escape... and 3rd Strike has the best throw system since it's done by pressing Jap+Short~~ which eliminate all the accident throw~~ and kara-cancelling throw is a technique~~ it's hard to perform and it doesn't ruin the game coz u can always get away from it~~ i don't throw ppl often (like no more than 5 times/round), but i do throw ppl when it's neccessary~~ 3rd Strike is not all about throws... Posted by DJ Ren on 04:26:2001 10:45 PM: LOLO, This is what APOC wrote, and this is what I was alluding to when I made the comment about throws and kara cancelling. This is a direct quote to what he wrote earlier, I just didn't want to reiterate it in my post. But here it is: "Throws are prolly the stupidest thing in 3s. Nothing is worse than KNOWING you're opponent is going for a throw...then instead of doing a "push" type move like a counter throw, you bust an EX DP to cause damage only to hear "Shoryu...." And see yourself getting thrown. On a game like 3s you can literally beat players with a Kara throw and a low RH. So stupid. Not even a REAL strategy yet effective because of really stupid priorities in throws. I mean...a dp takes longer physically to activate...and you do it fast enough to nail a guy outta trying to throw you...the dper is taking ALL of the risk...only to get his dp outprioritized by the throw. I laughed when I first saw this. Until I realized it wasn't a circumstance...it's the way the game works. NO other SF has this...NONE. Closest thing is grabbing a dp with a gief spd...and you can only do that after avoiding the impact point. So timing AND range are a factor. On 3s it doesn't mean jack. Just throw. When your only option to countering a throw is to throw back causing a tech and pushing you both clear across the screen resetting the match...stupid. SF3 tech throws were always lame. " After reading this I hope you understand why I said what I said about kara and throws. ~Ren Posted by m121akuma on 04:26:2001 11:03 PM: Personally, I like 3rd Strike. It may be slow paced compared to "vs." ar Alpha games, but it had near perfect character balance, and stunning animation. The fact that you could customize the game to your liking (at least in the home version) made it so that if you don't like the default set up of the game, you could always add things you like, or take out things you hate. It's not my favorite SF game, but I still like it a lot. I think you all just hate the music... Posted by TS on 04:27:2001 02:05 AM: Even ignoring what I said about 3S having like 98% of it's game at close range, I think the main reason why people don't like it is because of what it becomes when at it's best. As Apoc said, "random." I personally don't mind, since in like 50% of SF games I don't go in with a plan anyway (A3, CvS Blanka and MvC2 being the most recent exceptions), but I can see why people wouldn't like it. Posted by Stuc2K on 04:27:2001 02:25 AM: Third Strike in my opinion is the best fighting game on the market hands down.....don't flame me, its just my personal opinion. I love it to death. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 03:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by BillyKane His English sound pretty good to me... And Third Strike is my favorite fighting game right now. Parries are a great addition in my opinion. Who said you had to use parrying all the time anyway? If you can win without using them, then more power to you. Parrying isn't the only thing in the game, it's just an option. No one is forcing you to parry... But the game is about strategy. You need to find a way NOT to get parried... That's strategy. Once again...I don't have any problem with parrying. But no; varying your attacks is not a solid strategy just something that should be natural in your gameplay like hitting a dp late in ol skool for more damage and such. And it's quite easy to avoid a parry. And you can be thrown WHILE parrying, change the timing of a multi-hitting attack ANY time they don't have super which is right off the bat. In fact letting someone parry is even smart at times. Parrying doesn't cause the pause it did in 3s. You guys don't seem to realize how weak the majority of parries are in this game. I repeat again...you are playing on a mediocre level. The game is NOT about strategy. If you think avoiding a parry is a really strategic aspect of 3s then you must play ppl you know all of the time. Pick a high priority character and throw out a high priority move when they attack. There! Now you don't have to even try to parry or worry about them parrying. Wow what a solid strategy. So you're telling me avoiding a parry is strategy? On the ground you either attack high/low or throw to do damage on the offensive. Defensive you parry high, low, or tech the throw. There's the rocks/paper/scissors aspect of the game...which is called a guessing game. But wait! Let's get a little more creative! On offense you time a rhythmic string of attacks and then add a pause on purpose to draw the counter...so you can parry. Now when coming from defense the majority of ppl instinctually will attack you low since they are blocking low to be safe. So what do you do? Down parry? Sure that will work against ppl that think stupidly. The intelligent player will go at random KNOWING you have to guess to parry OR simply throw off their timing to throw your parry timing off which in turn you will have to block unless you get lucky by guessing right(of course your chances are increased if you've played this opponent b4...still guessing just educated when you know the way one plays). And what if by chance the person sits there and does nothing? Um...attack again I guess or try to throw. Which can be teched...even a Kara, for no damage and throwing both of you across the screen again resetting everything...it's simply back and forth guessing in most arcades. Funny thing is ppl don't realize it. But what do I know? I could never take this game seriously...I just must NOT see the superior strategy in the game. Hows this...pick one match-up and show me the solid strategy to win it. Or does it change EVERY time? If it does...ask urself why. Then you pick the sf game and I'll pick a match and attempt to show you the difference. If ur up for the challenge. Any 2 characters you want. I'm pretty sure I'll rip ur "strategy" to shreds within' minutes with little thought. Not with a counter strategy at all...but by showing that it is NO strategy. And I offer the same opportunity for you to do on mine as well. If not it doesn't matter. It's opinion. And my opinion isn't from a casual gamers perspective. I can see why it could be frustrating. There's a reason 3s died so fast in the competitive world. Just a boring game in a competitive sense. I could be wrong. Just what I've seen. I've never been to Japan at all though. Apoc. Posted by d33k on 04:27:2001 03:48 AM: okay okay okay.....to sum up what people say about 3s: 1)It's a simplistic game 2)Parries ruin the game (especially red parries) 3)It's slow 4)It's random 3S isn't as simple as you think it is. Throwing does have alot of priority, but of course you can get out of it. There are no traps in this game. Unlike the VS, you don't rely on chip-damage (such as Strider/Doom). You actually can breathe playing this game. Yeah, it seems that you can parry everything, but even parrying is a dangerous move. You gotta plan and react when you parry, and that is not simple at all. I can parry all day against chun-li....parry a back fierce and believe I have an open hit, all of a sudden low forward into super! All part of her gameplan. The reason why people think it's slow is because you guys play the game like it's MvC2. I've seen many people just sit there like they are trying to bait someone into a move, much like baiting someone to rush in so he/she can use an assist. Of course the game is going to be slow comparing it to MvC2. But, it's STREET FIGHTER 3! What was it's predecessor? STREET FIGHTER 2! Was SF2 fast? Hell fuckin no! Hell, you can speed up the game yourself if you decide to not turtle. The game is really interesting if you are playing rush, because you have the ability to parry a move while applying pressure. That's the whole beauty of the game, being able to pressure a character, making a person think about what to do while the opponent is coming full force. I don't play VS for the same reasons many people praise it. There's too much going on. Whatever happened to one on one fighting? Whatever happened to making people think harder instead of relying on Spiral/Sentinel traps and AHVB guard breaks? 3S is a great game and I highly recommend to everyone to play. It's not too difficult to learn, but is difficult to master. I've seen many scrubs come out of no where and beat good MvC2 players for the simple fact that they can guard break and do 4 AHVBs! If that requires a lot of thinking as opposed to 3S doing hard Kara's and parries, then I guess one on one street fighter has died, and that is a sad thought because that was the style that started this madness. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 05:54 AM: quote: Originally posted by d33k okay okay okay.....to sum up what people say about 3s: 1)It's a simplistic game 2)Parries ruin the game (especially red parries) 3)It's slow 4)It's random 3S isn't as simple as you think it is. Throwing does have alot of priority, but of course you can get out of it." Yes...with a tech throw...which separates you and your opponent across the screen. Look at it like this. One guy is turtling and trying to play keep away...the other guy gets passed every keep away tactic and throws FIRST...the other guy...even if slow can take ZERO damage and reset the whole scenario. Even likeing 2i this was always stupid and slows the pace of the game in general. "There are no traps in this game. Unlike the VS, you don't rely on chip-damage (such as Strider/Doom)." However in the vs. games you can block anywhere at anytime...so block damage forces the fight. If you could block everything even in the air in 3s and there was no block damage the game would be just as stupid as mvc2 w/o block damage. "You actually can breathe playing this game. Yeah, it seems that you can parry everything," You can breathe because it's so damn slow. And no it doesn't seem like you can parry everything? What kind of ppl do you play? "but even parrying is a dangerous move. You gotta plan and react when you parry," Um...wrong...in 3s parries are anticipatory. You parry just a split before impact...not reactionary. If it were reactionary it would be more skillfull...but it is not. " and that is not simple at all. I can parry all day against chun-li....parry a back fierce and believe I have an open hit, all of a sudden low forward into super! All part of her gameplan." Proving as I stated before that parries aren't as necessary...parries are far from a free hit in 3s...that's why you want to play close up. "The reason why people think it's slow is because you guys play the game like it's MvC2." LOL...yeah I bet the ppl that play 3s are mainly mvc2 lovers as well. No, compare the game to 2ndImpact and it will still be slow. " I've seen many people just sit there like they are trying to bait someone into a move, much like baiting someone to rush in so he/she can use an assist. Of course the game is going to be slow comparing it to MvC2." K...next time...please don't go on a rant off of a really lame assumption. I compare 3s to other sfs(yes I realize it is an unfair comparison but it does bare the name of street fighter). " But, it's STREET FIGHTER 3! What was it's predecessor? STREET FIGHTER 2! Was SF2 fast? Hell fuckin no! Hell, you can speed up the game yourself if you decide to not turtle." I'm replying as I read and as I go I wonder what planet you are from? NO! The predecessor is SF3:2I and that was much faster. And the last SF2 was SSF2T. That makes 3s look like it's in slow motion and yes it is fast as hell. And no you can't turtle in ST like you can in 3s. You have absolutely NO CLUE about what ur talking about. " The game is really interesting if you are playing rush, because you have the ability to parry a move while applying pressure." Ur saying that it's really interesting when you play it a certain way!? LOL That's like saying Guile vs. Guile is fun if you don't throw sonic booms. " That's the whole beauty of the game, being able to pressure a character, making a person think about what to do while the opponent is coming full force. I don't play VS for the same reasons many people praise it. There's too much going on. Whatever happened to one on one fighting? Whatever happened to making people think harder instead of relying on Spiral/Sentinel traps and AHVB guard breaks?" 3s makes you think harder? LOL " 3S is a great game and I highly recommend to everyone to play. It's not too difficult to learn, but is difficult to master. I've seen many scrubs come out of no where and beat good MvC2 players for the simple fact that they can guard break and do 4 AHVBs! If that requires a lot of thinking as opposed to 3S doing hard Kara's and parries, then I guess one on one street fighter has died, and that is a sad thought because that was the style that started this madness. " No SF2 started it all. And 3s is nothing like it. Kara's are not hard...about as hard as a dragon punch before you knew how to do it. Parries aren't hard either? And you think MVC2 doesn't require a lot of thinking because of Cable? I could use the same lame arguments for cable that I see defending this game...howz this: Cable is what makes it strategic...it's getting around cable that's the strategy...lame What's really sad is when someone tries really hard to back up their opinion and comes out with a whole shitload of...shit. I'm all for someone showing me the greatness of 3s...but you my friend, are not the one. You like the game. Good. You have an opinion. Yay! But you don't have a leg to stand on with your strategy in arguing your point...which shows me that you wouldn't understand why 3s is good or bad anyway. You only understand that you like it. If you're really young...then good try. If you're an adult or close to it...you need a class in critical thinking. If I sound insulting I apologize but I found your argument pretty insulting from an intelligent standpoint. But then, I know I've put plenty of lazy posts up b4 so I can't hold that against you. Apoc. Posted by *Dp on 04:27:2001 05:57 AM: Posted by Dr.Deelite:"I realized that I was basically just hitting buttons while randomly crouching or standing, and taking every opportunity to throw, and hardly even thinking about what I was doing." WOW, you just now realized that? Posted by CykoClops on 04:27:2001 06:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc " No SF2 started it all. And 3s is nothing like it. Kara's are not hard...about as hard as a dragon punch before you knew how to do it. Parries aren't hard either? And you think MVC2 doesn't require a lot of thinking because of Cable? I could use the same lame arguments for cable that I see defending this game...howz this: Cable is what makes it strategic...it's getting around cable that's the strategy...lame What's really sad is when someone tries really hard to back up their opinion and comes out with a whole shitload of...shit. I'm all for someone showing me the greatness of 3s...but you my friend, are not the one. You like the game. Good. You have an opinion. Yay! But you don't have a leg to stand on with your strategy in arguing your point...which shows me that you wouldn't understand why 3s is good or bad anyway. You only understand that you like it. If you're really young...then good try. If you're an adult or close to it...you need a class in critical thinking. If I sound insulting I apologize but I found your argument pretty insulting from an intelligent standpoint. But then, I know I've put plenty of lazy posts up b4 so I can't hold that against you. Apoc. hey man u didn't finish ur argument properly, next time say "I rest my case" Posted by Mephisto on 04:27:2001 06:50 AM: Paraing is da shit... once u learn how to do it, and do it well... it can be the most impressing thing evur... even nicr then some infinite combo in MVC2, it's worth learning seeing the look on ur opponent when u parry their whole super is worth it Posted by VManOfMana on 04:27:2001 07:14 AM: The problem, I think, is that people is always biased on their point of view according to their tastes (hey, we are all human ^_-) Third Strike is not a bad game, neither is MvC2, neither is MvC1 or CvS. They are all different, so they appeal to different people. I think the main problem that SF3 faced when it was released is that it was nowhere as fast as the speed of the crossovers, which is what everyone played (and still plays) at the time. Does that makes it a bad game? No. Just not as appreciated as others. For me, it all comes down to this: 3S - excellent execution and unpredicatibility is required MvC2 - team strategy Opposite worlds. Of course, the people who will play 3S will diss MvC2 and viceversa. As of me, 3S is my favorite right now, since I don't like playing trap games, however, that doesn't mean I won't join in into the MvC2 play, which is also played often overhere, even though I will get creamed since I don't play using traps/keepways? I see no problem, I can always get my revenge on 3S/CvS/ST anyways. So whats my point? Look at the good points that every different game has and enjoy those good points. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 04:27:2001 07:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by *Dp WOW, you just now realized that? And this post is here because? Posted by hsien on 04:27:2001 09:12 AM: if you like the game, play it. if you don't like the game don't play it. most of the posters here don't know what they are talking about, just ignore them. Posted by BillyKane on 04:27:2001 01:10 PM: You're probably right Hsien... Anyways... I don't really play on mediocre level. Assuming things about people on the internet isn't the best way to make your points, same for commenting on other people's English. As for criticizing someone's post because he's praising the game... Yeah these are just opinions. I agree that TS is more based on skill than strategy, but there IS strategy in TS. Say you're playing Chun-Li and you want to link your Crouching forward to combo it into your SA2. A good player won't just poke randomly, he will just try to make people block high or high parry, or use the overhead to confuse his opponent. You call that random; I call that strategy. It's call "to mix up your attacks", I think (I could be wrong I'm not a native speaker neither, so bear with me). When I used Alex and Hugo I rely a lot on their anti-air throw moves (DP+ K), so I want to make them jump. Well making your opponent in jump isn't just random... I'll back dash and jump myself, use his charge shoulder move to force them to jump. If they don't jump, I'll throw: that's one of MY Strategies with Alex (whether they're good or bad isn't the question though). If I'm Hugo's opponent, I'll try not to jump much because I know he has that move. I also fear his anti-air SA (I don't know the American names, sorry), so I'll try to play a dash game evolving around dashes -again, I know- ground combos and throws. If I have a dashing move (Ibuki's hcf+K, Dudley's hcf+K, Ryu's Joudan, the Shoto's Hurricane Kicks to and extent, Dudley's EX Machine Blow Gun...). This is strategy, isn't it? I'm adapting to my opponent's character and style of play, right? I can even have a plan BEFORE the fight: when I use Ibuki, I tend to be very offensive and not parry much because she takes so much damage (low stamina). I usually jump a lot and abuse her target combos. I use her air projectile (air qcf+P) and then use her throw move thing (hcf+ P). I'll use her qcb+K to put pressure and finish with a low kick, then use her universal overhead or forward+K, and then probably dash back or super jump backwards. These are a few of my strategies with a few characters. Believe it or not, I win a lot of fights against my friends AND against people I don't know when I rely on tactics. I don't think Hsien is the best TS player in the US just because he's random. Saying that honestly does not make much sense to me, and sounds like an insult to his skills. Now you can have fun and try to "tear apart" my strategies -it's quite easy since there are so many options in TS, but then again you don't win fights "on the paper"- but that doesn't negate the fact that they ARE strategies. If you think this post doesn't make any sense or isn't "intelligently leveled enough", feel free to ignore it. I gave you my opinion and a few arguments using the best English I can. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 01:33 PM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by BillyKane [B]You're probably right Hsien... Anyways... I don't really play on mediocre level. Assuming things about people on the internet isn't the best way to make your points, same for commenting on other people's English. As for criticizing someone's post because he's praising the game... Yeah these are just opinions. Just a quick note on my english criticism. I was a little frustrated that someone got a totally different idea from what I had posted. I admit that was out of line and I apologize. I couldn't see how I could've been misunderstood and it was more a shot at assumption than english usage. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously in that this is a gaming forum, not english class and I didn't think anyone really cared about grammar(or should) in these forums so I mistakingly felt it non-offensive. I've been shown wrong and will re-think myself before making comments like that. My grammar is pretty horrible in here as it is...who am I to speak on the use of the english language? Again, I apologize. That was way out of line and in retrospect I find it shameful that I came off that way. I really had no problem understanding. My problem was with me being misunderstood when I tried to be clear. The fact that someone isn't a native speaker of the english language yet they have a good enough grasp to communicate with it is highly commendable and valuable. I am envious of those who speak many languages and hope to one day aquire those skills. To all I've offended, please accept my apologies. Apoc. Posted by Don Knotts on 04:27:2001 01:50 PM: No one can deny that 3S is very diffrent from the vs series, SFA, Darkstalkers, and SF2. It's amazing to me that Capcom could even make a game with such a diffrent gameplay feel without adding a million new options like the vs. series. Like it or not, it's got it's own identity. And that makes it worth playing to me. Posted by BillyKane on 04:27:2001 01:53 PM: No prob with me at least. I wasn't really offended, more surprised. You came off as a sensible poster with good points, I think, so I didn't really get where that comment came from. I've personally been the "victim" of similar comments, maybe that's why I took the freedom to reply. Anyways, to sum up, you're all forgiven in my opinion. Posted by Havoc911 on 04:27:2001 02:44 PM: I love 3S, but can we please stop with the weak arguments. "It's different from MvC2, so people don't play it." Please. People played A3 (some still do) people still play ST, and people play CvS. The game is clearly slower than 2I, and that is a problem for me, but its not definately not unbearably slow. Apoc, you say that the game is just about guessing? Guess again. If the whole idea in the game is to be random, then couldn't any random player win any match? Couldn't he win any tournament? There is obviously some strategy needed to win in 3S. Maybe you just randomly tap down or forward to parry, but there are ways to know what your opponent will do; there are ways to make your opponent throw out moves that you can then parry, and counter. Yes, I realize that a parry does not equal a free hit, but it is possible to make your opponent use moves that you can counter for free. 3S is a lot about pokes, but the pokes that are thrown are not random. You said yourself that it is sometimes more advantageous to counter-poke a low priority move rather than parry it. Thus, the poke is not random. Your argument about the fireball's uselesness in 3S is valid, but that just doesn't bother me. Long-range fighting is boring to me, I'd rather play up close, so, to me, 3S is more fun to play than a game like MvC2, which is controlled by range traps. And, hey, isn't that why Capcom varies their games? Some people like one game, some like others. I don't understand why you are wasting your time trying to blast a game that you don't like with arguments which are really just rooted in your opinions. Why don't you use your time playing a game you do like, instead of bashing a game you don't? Posted by d33k on 04:27:2001 04:26 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc " No SF2 started it all. And 3s is nothing like it. Kara's are not hard...about as hard as a dragon punch before you knew how to do it. Parries aren't hard either? And you think MVC2 doesn't require a lot of thinking because of Cable? I could use the same lame arguments for cable that I see defending this game...howz this: Cable is what makes it strategic...it's getting around cable that's the strategy...lame Apoc. I meant 3S and SF2 are the same for the fact that it is 1 on 1. I didn't say they are totally the same game. Parries are much more difficult. Parrying itself is not too hard, but when to do it requires strategy. Like I said before, you can be a parry master and still get your ass whooped. You have to strategically parry or else your goin to get baited into something bad. Isn't strategy the ability to plan moves ahead of time so you can escape or apply moves in your favor? And like what people are sayin, these are all opinions. I didn't say anyone is stupid for thinkin 3S is bad. I just said that I don't like MvC2 for the same reasons people praise it. No one will ever win an argument on "which one is better" because it all comes down to the person's preference. I just voiced my opinion. I didn't really want to start an argument, I just wanted to say what I feel. Damn, and I didn't notice all your arguments when you quoted me. Now, you said that you can't parry anything. Almost all moves are parryable (and please don't tell me I'm wrong on this). Gill's Angel super, Raging Demon, and throws are not parryable (although you can tech a throw), but other than those moves you can parry virtually everything if you tried. I used the word predecessor wrong. I meant to say where'd the whole foundation come from when talking about SF3? SF2. That's why I believe its so slow. SSF2T is fast if you play it nowadays, but back when it first came out I believe people played it on a normal speed, as people did on SSF2, SF2HF, SF2CE and SF2WW. If I said 3S, I was wrong. I meant the whole SF3 deal. IMO, i feel 3S is faster than A2 if comparing it to other SFs. You're right about the whole style of play that I commented on (guile vs guile w/o sonic booms). That was laziness on my part. And about reacting after a parry. Parrying is anticipatory, but wouldn't you have to react when you parry something as opposed to just parrying and standing there? They aren't as necessary, but they are a big part of the game. Now comparing it to 2I, there are things that I don't agree with (toneing down Sean), but that's life and we gotta deal with it. Like I said before, I was voicing my opinion. I read a lot of posts here, but I didn't look at who the posters are. I wasn't attacking a single person's opinion. Where I'm from, people compare 3S to MvC2 and why it's so slow etc. etc. So that's why i made those assumptions on what people are comparing it to. My apologies. I'm just sore that people look down on the game like its some shit that capcom whipped out. If the japanese play it a lot, then there can't be something wrong with the game itself. It comes down to personal preference. Posted by Exploit on 04:27:2001 04:40 PM: The game to me is totally defensive. Street fighter is supposed to be a game that some characters thrive on offense and some operate on defense. In 3S, Every move you perform can be parried or kara-countered. This, combined with the slow speed, makes it a turtler's game. Hell, you can even counter super arts with red-parry. Basically, the only way to win at 3S is to be totally unpredictable. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 05:33 PM: quote: Originally posted by Havoc911 I love 3S, but can we please stop with the weak arguments. "It's different from MvC2, so people don't play it." Please. People played A3 (some still do) people still play ST, and people play CvS. The game is clearly slower than 2I, and that is a problem for me, but its not definately not unbearably slow. Apoc, you say that the game is just about guessing?" No...I did however say that it has a rocks/papers/scissor aspect which isn't strategic and ppl mistake it as so. "Guess again. If the whole idea in the game is to be random, then couldn't any random player win any match? Couldn't he win any tournament?" Almost right on the money. Skill plays a much higher factor than strategy in 3s impo. I've played the game less than 10 days out of the year and can still beat ppl who are serious about the game or had been at one point. I have never taken the game seriously or needed to to win. I never said the game was not a skill game. But I prefer much more of a balance between skill and strategy and I find that effective strategies in 3s are too simplistic to be fun. When I say effective I mean in the US and saying a strategy is simplistic does not mean that anyone can implement it. It takes skill to play 3s no doubt. "There is obviously some strategy needed to win in 3S. Maybe you just randomly tap down or forward to parry, but there are ways to know what your opponent will do;" Gotta stop you right there. I know what you're trying to say...but no there is no sure way of knowing what your opponent will do unless you play that opponent often. That much should be obvious...you can get a good "sense" of what he "could" do...but there's no way you could know with absolute certainty what he will do, if anything. You can limit his options so that you have a stronger idea. " there are ways to make your opponent throw out moves that you can then parry, and counter." No...in 3s turtling is very strong and a completely viable strategy. If your opponent is very skillfull he can block anything since there is no guardcrush and tech well after being thrown taking no damage as well. But general your opponent will make a move because it's about fun...doing nothing is not too fun...so ppl move. A player with great reflexes can block your overheads and tech your throws. If you want to make this argument you can't simply allude to the fact that "there are ways". Show me. " Yes, I realize that a parry does not equal a free hit, but it is possible to make your opponent use moves that you can counter for free." Again...you are saying something without saying anything really. Please illustrate these ways and enlighten us all. "3S is a lot about pokes, but the pokes that are thrown are not random." Perhaps you read me wrong. Believe me...I'm from the ol skool. I know all about pokes and every purpose they have. " You said yourself that it is sometimes more advantageous to counter-poke a low priority move rather than parry it. " Actually, if you could do this consistently, winning the trade...parries would be totally unnecessary. Chun Li anyone? " Thus, the poke is not random. Your argument about the fireball's uselesness in 3S is valid," You need to quote me. I don't remember this. " but that just doesn't bother me. Long-range fighting is boring to me, I'd rather play up close, so, to me, 3S is more fun to play than a game like MvC2," I'm an in your face player. If you are...what do you think of the tech throws of 3s? " which is controlled by range traps." I'm no mvc2 expert...but no the entire game is not about good traps...there are many types of teams. " And, hey, isn't that why Capcom varies their games? Some people like one game, some like others. I don't understand why you are wasting your time trying to blast a game that you don't like with arguments which are really just rooted in your opinions. Why don't you use your time playing a game you do like, instead of bashing a game you don't? " lol. I argue for the sake of changing my opinion. It's not as though I wanted to dislike 3s. The game was sorely disappointing imo. But most of the statements I've made are gameplay issues...whether I like them or not doesn't change the facts. I don't sit around thinking about this stuff. I read as I reply generally once I see a comment I feel I want to reply to. This post was about what makes 3s bad. So I replied. I would've thought my comments would've spurred a compelling argument against my own. That would've pleased me. When I saw that Hsien had posted I was excited until I saw it. One of, if not THE best 3s player in our country and even he couldn't offer any arguments on why the game is worth playing. Let me let you in on a little secret. You really want to know why I've been posting on a game I, personally, couldn't care less about? Because I find it disheartening that the game we got beaten most horribly in in Japan is not gonna be at B5. I feel it an honor to US players that Japan is up to the challenge of avenging their huge defeat in MVC2. But sadly I completely agree with SRK about not having 3s. As a tourney game it died instantly...only popping up in major tourneys. And there was like 3 places in the country where ppl played in regularly. One of the main reasons I think we did so poorly is for lack of competition. Outside of Hsien and maybe Wilson, no respected player still cared enough to play the game. So I argue here waiting for someone to make me realize what a great game it is and how it is NOT boring at advanced levels. Did you hear the Japanese Chun strategy? OMG...lame as hell...simplistic...and boring...yet wins. I've been waiting for someone to show me how fun and strategic it could be at high levels when every major tournament in the states showed otherwise. Don't you wonder how the USs elite could be beaten so badly yet not be inspired to play and become better? Well, I laid it out for everyone so I could be shown so that I could convince Alex and Mike...and some other elite players to play and take it seriously so that we all could try and avenge the loss in Japan like Japan is doing. And what have I gotten? NADA. I don't care about this game. I wish the game was worthy of my time. There are a ton of skillfull fighters out there...3s is one of them...but it is prolly the most boring when it comes to strategy. I wasn't here trying to convince everyone and to "bash" the game as you called it. I wanted to be proven wrong. Hate to say it...but these weren't simply my opinions. Most elite players find 3s to be crap. And for all your love for this game and all its players that are coming out of the woodwork, no one has said anything to change my mind and to help me change anyone elses. All this has done is validate everything we think about the game. Not even Hsien could outline the game and prove me wrong. I could argue against myself for the game better than what I've gotten. And I mean no disrespect by that. I've been a part of the sf scene for almost a decade...I know what makes a good sf...but I can't make this game seem worth playing to anyone. Even those that respect me would laugh. So...I tried to get help through other perspectives. But all the counter arguments have little or no substance. And it's not the fault of all of you 3s players. It's the game...until I'm shown otherwise. Shoot fellas! I got skills and tourney experience...but since my 3rd day of playing 3s it was always boring...couldn't even bring myself to want to learn it better even when my friends were all over the game. The game is fun for me as long as I take loooooooooooooong breaks from it. I win when I play more times than not and I don't even hone any skills at it. Why? My feeling is that I played 2i and strategy isn't too great in the game...that's why I can beat ppl who play the game very seriously...with little strategy in the game, whether I play or not they can never be too superior on strategy and skills are inherent. You watch me play you'd swear I'd spent time playing the game. I'm dirt at the game as far as what I could be...but the game itself makes me forget why I liked 2i. That really sux for me. Although I know one thing I remember liking 2i for...you were always moving the stick...cancelling universal overheads and such. Changing that to a button activated move AND slowing down the game made those boring:/ That was actually fun to do back then. And yes I understand why they changed it. 3s killed the whole 3 series to me...read the gamefan SF3 guide...you'll see I was all about sf3...and the original was broken even! But you'll see that a lot of ppl played it that wouldn't touch the 3 series anymore. 2i was a step beyond sf3...then 3s killed it all when it could've blown the roof off. What's worse is that's where it's ending It was well on its way to becoming a great series. 3s stole the fun. Shame on capcom. As an sf player 3s causes some sadness:/ Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 05:36 PM: How come half of my reply is in the quote box? heheh sorry fellas. I should've cut and pasted...I hope you read the replies and understand what I'm saying...my lines are the ones without quotation marks in the quote box along with the huge crap below. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 05:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by d33k Damn, and I didn't notice all your arguments when you quoted me. Now, you said that you can't parry anything. " huh? You most certainly misread me or someone's posting under my name. "Almost all moves are parryable (and please don't tell me I'm wrong on this). Gill's Angel super, Raging Demon, and throws are not parryable (although you can tech a throw), but other than those moves you can parry virtually everything if you tried. I used the word predecessor wrong. I meant to say where'd the whole foundation come from when talking about SF3? SF2. That's why I believe its so slow. SSF2T is fast if you play it nowadays, but back when it first came out I believe people played it on a normal speed," No...generally in tournaments speed 3 was always selected...most felt lame picking slower speeds as if admitting slower reflexes. hehhe "as people did on SSF2, SF2HF, SF2CE and SF2WW." No...SSF2 was booty slow and the majority hated the game hence ST coming out only 8 months later hoping to salvage some of the player base. And SF2HF? HF stands for hyper fighting and the first word was actually Turbo. HF is one of the fastest sfs ever. "If I said 3S, I was wrong. I meant the whole SF3 deal. IMO, i feel 3S is faster than A2 if comparing it to other SFs." How is this a matter of opinion? It is a fact that a2 is a faster game. " You're right about the whole style of play that I commented on (guile vs guile w/o sonic booms). That was laziness on my part. And about reacting after a parry. Parrying is anticipatory, but wouldn't you have to react when you parry something as opposed to just parrying and standing there?" Actually...I think I read my post after and I think you said "plan ahead to react" which does mean anticipate. That was my bad for not getting what you were saying right off. Sorry bout that. " They aren't as necessary, but they are a big part of the game. Now comparing it to 2I, there are things that I don't agree with (toneing down Sean), but that's life and we gotta deal with it. Like I said before, I was voicing my opinion. I read a lot of posts here, but I didn't look at who the posters are. I wasn't attacking a single person's opinion. Where I'm from, people compare 3S to MvC2 and why it's so slow etc. etc. So that's why i made those assumptions on what people are comparing it to. My apologies. I'm just sore that people look down on the game like its some shit that capcom whipped out. If the japanese play it a lot, then there can't be something wrong with the game itself. It comes down to personal preference." Do the Japanese still play it a lot? I would love for white to post about the strategy in 3s. Maybe he could show us all something were missing or I should say I'M missing. Apoc. Posted by Black_Hayato on 04:27:2001 05:55 PM: hmm... I really enjoyed reading this thread. This is why I love fighting games. Posted by Hentai on 04:27:2001 06:05 PM: also a quick note on parries, they also help your offence. Well with some folks.. like alex or hugo, when someone is parry happy, jump in with nothing (no attack), they're usually ready to try and parry your air attack, when none comes they'll try and knock you out of the air, parry that, free 360. how is that not playing Offence? your advancing and attacking. i mean mvc2 has universal air blocking for christs sake, and people complain about parring? come on. Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 06:12 PM: quote: Originally posted by mikeMenace i wish i didn't have to but, i must. i agree with Apoc n' kamui. (wuz up, Apoc) Wassup Mike da Man=) I feel you bro. It hurts me to talk bad about any sf But like I said as a game 3s is great. But as sf it's on the lower end. I agree with you completely about upgrading it slightly with added characters and an improved look. I think a guard crush might be enough to make it more fun. Either forcing parries or counters to up the action some. Semi-off topic. haha(gotta laugh) the sound effect the parries make now...CHING...I HATE IT! LOL I know it's not a gameplay thing...but something is annoying to me about a block move going CHING. I preferred the more blunt sound effect of 2i. The blue flash was enough to make it special For Urien I could understand the ching. Something was more gratifying from a more solid sound for a parry to me...ok I know...I'm lame:P "the game was ruined for the very reasons apoc stated in his first post. the game becomes this very unlikable at expert levels of play. second impact was sooo much better. in trying to elevated the SF3 system they managed to ruin the whole thing. had they just added characters, and improve the "look" of the game, it would be so much more liked. backward dashes are cheap, they cancel recovery, and promote "hit n' run" style gameplay.(turns the game into a "snacthfest") imo, Capcom should now follow examples from other game engines,(such as arc systems's GGX) and penalize your super bar for back dashes, have a guard crush, reward for forward dashing(superbar again). there are other elements to this game imo that promote higher levels of play that Capcom should look at, maybe even damage scaling for players w/backdash too much and block too much.(just a thought, i could be wrong) i personally like the game more than the whole vs. series, don't like the whole aircombo infinite crap, imo MvC2 is big cluster fuck, i respect those who like it and the reasons they like it. it's not for me. i not really into alpha, didn't like the scale plus little kitty-hit damage. SF3 imo is still the most aesthetic, but 3s leaves a lot more to be desired. Posted by Mech Zangief Master on 04:27:2001 06:12 PM: hey ppl i played this game where u have to aviod bullets from a conga line & hampsters while tryin to make the shadow of a shiloute whole wiv coilour n shit also 3rd strike is a good SF it requires skill unlike some other games Posted by BillyKane on 04:27:2001 06:28 PM: Third Strike is still play A LOT in Japan. Posted by mikeMenace on 04:27:2001 07:10 PM: quote: Originally posted by Apoc Semi-off topic. haha(gotta laugh) the sound effect the parries make now...CHING...I HATE IT! LOL I know it's not a gameplay thing...but something is annoying to me about a block move going CHING. I preferred the more blunt sound effect of 2i. The blue flash was enough to make it special For Urien I could understand the ching. Something was more gratifying from a more solid sound for a parry to me...ok I know...I'm lame:P LOL!!! luckily i didn't noticed the blocking sound (until now..arg!) Yes i do agree about the parries! the parries in 2i were more dramatic, so were the Super Arts, i totally loved the blue flash of an SA.(it would make my eyes glaze over, tongue hang out, LOL.) or how about in sf3 and the 2i beta version, there was a camera pan-in when you'd connect w/an SA. That was tight! Posted by Apoc on 04:27:2001 07:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by mikeMenace LOL!!! luckily i didn't noticed the blocking sound (until now..arg!) Yes i do agree about the parries! the parries in 2i were more dramatic, so were the Super Arts, i totally loved the blue flash of an SA.(it would make my eyes glaze over, tongue hang out, LOL.) or how about in sf3 and the 2i beta version, there was a camera pan-in when you'd connect w/an SA. That was tight! It doesn't pan in anymore? I could swear while playing the cpu when you'd cancel a finishing hit with a super it panned in? Am I on a beta 3s? That was definately cool Oh wait...know what else bugs me aside from gameplay in 3s...what they did to Dudley's rocket upper super...added the tornado effect or whatever...ugh it's uglier now...gameplay wise it doesn't hit low moves from far I remember it would be fun to nail a toe so it would do a 3-4 hit juggle then go into more to add to the combo. On 3s it whiffs cuz the impact point isn't directly on the ground! So reacting to a short doesn't do me jack with that super And why CAN'T we use all 3 supers? I'm not really thinking about it now...but would it be that bad? K...I need sleep. Nice seein' ya here on SRK Mike. Apoc. Posted by Don Knotts on 04:27:2001 07:28 PM: I just watched a gameplay movie of MvsC2 featuring Duc and Rattana. It was the most repitive, boring fight I have ever seen in any game. All damage was done with projectiles, except for one throw, and almost all done with supers and assists. If I had never played the game, I wouldn't have even thought their was hand to hand fighting in it. Just gun fights. No one can tell me that 3S ever boils down to something monotonus. Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:27:2001 07:38 PM: I want to get into Third Strike, but I don't know why I haven't aside from not liking a lot of the characters available. I guess that's kinda silly ... I dunno ... Now if they had Poison available for play, then it wouldn't matter if she was the worst character to play, I'd pick her regardless. Posted by Lantis on 04:27:2001 07:51 PM: Thanks a lot, Apoc. I really wanted a pro's review of this game, that's why I posted it here at SRK. Now I can use your arguments to argue against someone who is all about Third Strike and thinks it's the shiznit (Billy Kane, you know him, don't ya?). But that's my personal agenda... On a really off topic note, is it true that Poison was once a HE?! I read some FAQ which stated so...and supposedly it was official. I don't know if that's true...but I'm definetly not lookig at Poison the same way as before. o_O Posted by mikeMenace on 04:27:2001 07:52 PM: sure they could give her moves like lita of the wwf...lol Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:27:2001 07:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis On a really off topic note, is it true that Poison was once a HE?! I read some FAQ which stated so...and supposedly it was official. I don't know if that's true...but I'm definetly not lookig at Poison the same way as before. o_O OMG I can't escape this silly rumor! Poison is NOT a transexual. I've yet to find any FAQ that states that, nor would I accept the world of any Joe-Shmoe who happens to write a FAQ stating that. Poison is all woman, no more no less. And frankly, she's more woman than all the other women combined in that game. Posted by Don Knotts on 04:27:2001 08:04 PM: I read that Poison's designer said once in passing that she was a he. He said that because she was taken out of the SNES version of Final Fight because of the violence against women issue. He wanted her in the game, of course, so his defense that she was a he. It's fun to me that a guy can just decide something like that, and crush the fantasies of thousands of men around the globe. Posted by Hentai on 04:27:2001 08:04 PM: quote: Originally posted by JuliJuniper OMG I can't escape this silly rumor! Poison is NOT a transexual. I've yet to find any FAQ that states that, nor would I accept the world of any Joe-Shmoe who happens to write a FAQ stating that. Poison is all woman, no more no less. And frankly, she's more woman than all the other women combined in that game. i've heard all this before and from my understanding poison is a man, offically from capcom, always has been, since FF. i could be wrong but i remeber this debate like a year or two ago. Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:27:2001 08:25 PM: quote: Originally posted by Hentai i've heard all this before and from my understanding poison is a man, offically from capcom, always has been, since FF. i could be wrong but i remeber this debate like a year or two ago. Completely false. If you can find me official proof provided by Capcom stating that Poison is actually a man or a transexual, then I'll believe it. It just seems very far-fetched that Capcom would ever include such a bizarre and extreme character for that day in age. MAYBE it might be done today, and that's a weak maybe at that to boot, but back in the early 80s? No way. Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:27:2001 08:31 PM: More on the Poison controversy: "Despite claims made by the author of the book entitled Game Over, the female enemies, Roxy and Poison, are NOT transvestites; they are true bad girls. The fact that they are female can be shown by seeing Guy's stage in Street Fighter Alpha 2 and the official Capcom artwork in Versus Books' "Street Fighter Alpha 2 Strategy Guide." Apparently Nintendo of America thought that they were transvestites so they replaced them in the US SNES version of Final Fight." I took the above content from this page: http://www.klov.com/F/Final_Fight.html I will believe the above more readily as that seems a more likely scenario for why folks were thinking they were transexuals or transvestites. Posted by Don Knotts on 04:27:2001 08:42 PM: This is one of those arguments that can never be proven. Poinon will never drop his/her drawers and give us proof. Posted by mikeMenace on 04:27:2001 08:47 PM: you can't even see a visible adams' apple. damn, this has gotten waaay off topic. lol Posted by TS on 04:27:2001 09:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by mikeMenace you can't even see a visible adams' apple. damn, this has gotten waaay off topic. lol Since when can you see visible Adam's Apples on 10 year old sprites? About the poison thing- Don Knotts makes the most sense so far, and I'm a little skeptical of that site... They didn't even have the Final Fight infinites... Posted by mikeMenace on 04:27:2001 09:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ts Since when can you see visible Adam's Apples on 10 year old sprites? that's the humor of it. sorry, my comic delivery must be off Posted by TS on 04:27:2001 09:47 PM: heh heh heh. Funny now. My fault. Posted by omni on 04:27:2001 10:01 PM: While I would never claim to be the best at 3S - I do think I have a good grasp on what is wrong with the game - and what is also done right about the game. However, one of my main problems with the game is the lack of options at the mid range when neither character has a fireball. I was playing against MikeMeance the other night at SHGL - my Yang vs. his Hugo. During the end of every round - we both just sat there and danced for like 15-20 seconds at mid range - both too afraid to do anything cause the other would parry. If I swept - got parried, if he did low roundhouse, i would parry, if I did rekka ken - parry. Etc - every poke is parry bait at that range - so thus you have to be 'tricky' and insert some random poke that you hope doesn't get parried and try to land a big combo or some other form of large damage off of it. Ugh, so boring. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com www.shoryuken.com Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:27:2001 10:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by TS About the poison thing- Don Knotts makes the most sense so far, and I'm a little skeptical of that site... They didn't even have the Final Fight infinites... ??? The game listings at that site don't list ANY moves, but since it doesn't say anything about infinites (nevermind the fact that NO OTHER moves are listed either) therefore Poison must be male? That alone makes Poison male despite all the other facts listed on that site regarding developers & dates? One little supposed omission? wtf? I'm not seeking an arguement, but that line of logic right there doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me honestly. Poison's a female character regardless of what some game magazine writer fantasized about. If he wants Poison to be male, then fine let her be male for him, but let's not point at an elephant and call it a mouse, alright? Posted by TS on 04:27:2001 11:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by JuliJuniper ??? The game listings at that site don't list ANY moves, but since it doesn't say anything about infinites (nevermind the fact that NO OTHER moves are listed either) therefore Poison must be male? That alone makes Poison male despite all the other facts listed on that site regarding developers & dates? One little supposed omission? wtf? I'm not seeking an arguement, but that line of logic right there doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me honestly. My point was, if you went to the SF2:WW page on that site, they had the handcuff glitches, and whatnot...but if at the FF page they didn't have the infinites listed, that makes me wonder how much they really know about the game. quote: Poison's a female character regardless of what some game magazine writer fantasized about. If he wants Poison to be male, then fine let her be male for him, but let's not point at an elephant and call it a mouse, alright? But if there was a mouse with an elephant's genitals walking around... Posted by NJames on 04:27:2001 11:47 PM: Well, I can say, 3S is more fun when you have players that are decent, but at the intermediate level, it's not fun at all. It's definitely more of an experts' game. -NJS- Posted by mikeMenace on 04:27:2001 11:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by Omni ....However, one of my main problems with the game is the lack of options at the mid range when neither character has a fireball. I was playing against MikeMeance the other night at SHGL - my Yang vs. his Hugo. During the end of every round - we both just sat there and danced for like 15-20 seconds at mid range - both too afraid to do anything cause the other would parry. If I swept - got parried, if he did low roundhouse, i would parry, if I did rekka ken - parry. Etc - every poke is parry bait at that range - so thus you have to be 'tricky' and insert some random poke that you hope doesn't get parried and try to land a big combo or some other form of large damage off of it. i think you've hit up an important point: parries are much easier at mid-range, this is a prime example of how the game gets slowed down. another problem is that it's too easy to parry jump-in attacks, (this was NOT the case in 2i) gawd! now this slows down the game. the only option is to jump-in throw (more guessing) and possibly eat a last frame dragon punch. (lame) only some characters can throw in two-hit auto-chains. to point-out again, they tried to improve upon the SF3 system when they shouldn't have, as a result "boring, long & conservative matches"! here's an inside scoop: at SHGL, [this doesn't apply to everybody so don't get bent outta shape if you know this isn't you. this does apply to a lot of players (and especially not our nation's finest: team so-cal)] playing hit n' run, mid to long range zoning, and winning only by your opponents mistakes(w/shotos in paticular)= SKILLs and STRATEGY. it does not mean i'm a snatch-bitch. this is what the game constantly gets reduced to, in daily play. if i doesn't happen in your area, my hat comes off to you n' your assoc. w/mad props, but the fact that it DOES happen, brings fault to the game imo. Posted by Havoc911 on 04:28:2001 03:16 AM: Alright, Apoc. I think I misread some of your posts. I thought you meant that 3S took no skill to play. Whatever, I'm not even going to claim that I'm some expert player, and you probably do see more of a SF game then I do, so if you don't like it, fine. Not a problem for me. I don't think I have the knowledge of SF on a whole (despite my years of play) to argue with you. I know this disapoints you, but could any argument make you like a game? I don't know about that. Posted by JuliJuniper on 04:28:2001 04:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by TS My point was, if you went to the SF2:WW page on that site, they had the handcuff glitches, and whatnot...but if at the FF page they didn't have the infinites listed, that makes me wonder how much they really know about the game. You have to admit that FF was not as popular as SF2:WW though. Who cares if there are infinites in FF anyways, eh? More interesting to learn the infamous Guile handcuffs! quote: Originally posted by TS But if there was a mouse with an elephant's genitals walking around... a) I highly doubt that mouse could walk around in the first place. b) What the hell are you doing looking for male genitalia on a 2D sprite character that you believe to be a transexual in the first place?! lol Never knew folks were so adamant to have Poison be a man for themselves! Poison's a woman thru and thru. Why the obsession with Poison being man? Makes me wonder what the kids are into nowadays. Hehe. Ya, I'm making a lot of unnecessary fuss, but I'm trying to be humorous about it (hence smilies) because it seems like such an obvious mistake to think that Poison's male to me. Maybe folks just had a hard time coming to grips that men would be beating up women in an arcade game, felt it was a bad influence on kids, and therefore released some silly statement thereby starting the whole rumor that Poison and Roxy were men to make themselves feel better. To me that sounds like something a corporation would pull to protect itself from irate parents in the name of money. Anyways, it's a fun topic to discuss, but ultimately silly. Posted by HyperBomber on 04:28:2001 04:33 AM: hoooo man....I've been putting off replying to this thread for days....and it's still here. Might as well throw my pennies' worth in. Apoc's point of view has really opened my eyes to the way this game is to the pros. And I can say I'm saddened that things turned out this way for what was intended to be the next big step for the SF series. I don't find MvC2 to be any better as far as variety in gameplay, but it's the reigning king in the states so it speaks for itself. Me, I have more fun playing SF3 than any others in the series so far, and for that reason all 3 versions of it will always have a place in my library. I haven't mastered it by any stretch, nor am I likely ever to...I have les and less free time as I get older, and I'll probably eventually have to quit the games for good. But until SF4 or whatever game they may have planned comes along that totally reinvents SF without destroying it for the vets and the pros, SF3 will still be my fav. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 07:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by Havoc911 Alright, Apoc. I think I misread some of your posts. I thought you meant that 3S took no skill to play. Whatever, I'm not even going to claim that I'm some expert player, and you probably do see more of a SF game then I do, so if you don't like it, fine. Not a problem for me. I don't think I have the knowledge of SF on a whole (despite my years of play) to argue with you. I know this disapoints you, but could any argument make you like a game? I don't know about that. It's not that I personally hate the game. MikeMenace and Omni can tell you I had fun playing it at SHGL a few weeks/month ago. But I think the comp had a lot to do with the fun 3s is a skill game with a lot of "tactics". Tactics, meaning a light form of mini-strategies. I think I would change my mind if someone could argue that an aggressive style could be superior to turtling overall in this game. Now I see maybe 2 characters where rushing down is a good idea. Turtling, by nature, takes much less work to employ and in 3s it is a dominant strategy. I didn't say turtling wasn't skillfull. But imo on a fighting game a perfect turtler should not defeat the perfect aggressor 90% of the time for way less work. If there were a few characters in the game where turtling was their best strategy...that's ok to me. But there should be a much stronger balance between defensive and offensive play. In 3s, on a strategic level, turtling breaks the scale. If you're a good enough turtle you're bound to make your opponenet repeat certain attacks to break your shell...so a turtle actually sees more opportunities to parry as well. I dunno...I thought 12 and Remy were rather lame designs on the whole...Remy just looks like Shaggy from scooby doo(just picture him with shaggy's colors...even his shoes...ugh). He's on crack. And 12 to me showed that capcom was having trouble with new designs...whereas Makoto was a great addition to an SF game If only they would make one more...and fix the damn game and go out with a bang! Sorry for any babble...and I always thought Poison was a guy...but what do I know:/ heheh Apoc. Posted by LOLO on 04:28:2001 01:34 PM: just thought of sthg... i made a post titled "is 3rd Strike getting old?" and i was typing stuff like Capcom didn't made a newer version of SF and it has been more than 2 yrs since 3rd Strike and the game is getting boring etc etc etc... well yea it's kinda boring if u get really good in da game, but seriously i think even if 3rd Strike gets a bit boring it's still waaaaay better than other fighting games~~ but back then ppl's replies are like "no" "no way" or whatever... now ppl are saying 3rd Strike is baad... *sniff sniff* isn't it amazing that ppl can turn against sthg in such a short time?? hehehe... Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 02:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by LOLO just thought of sthg... i made a post titled "is 3rd Strike getting old?" and i was typing stuff like Capcom didn't made a newer version of SF and it has been more than 2 yrs since 3rd Strike and the game is getting boring etc etc etc... well yea it's kinda boring if u get really good in da game, but seriously i think even if 3rd Strike gets a bit boring it's still waaaaay better than other fighting games~~ but back then ppl's replies are like "no" "no way" or whatever... now ppl are saying 3rd Strike is baad... *sniff sniff* isn't it amazing that ppl can turn against sthg in such a short time?? hehehe... When it was first in tourneys it was being dissed. But it had defendants back then from Va/Tx/Ny. That was it basically. Ppl aren't turning against it...the game was dead a loooooooooong time ago. And I already recall posting that it was lame after the 3rd day I tried it...and I was getting easy 30+winstreaks with everyone. So it had nothing to do with losing either. It just "felt" REALLY bad. Some ppl took longer to realize what it was most likely because their comp wasn't the same as in places like Cali. And really...if my comments were so true ppl couldn't argue...they may have gained a different perspective. Apoc. Posted by LOLO on 04:28:2001 02:28 PM: well... seriously i still find the game is fun to play if i lose~~ like VS-ing high level players is still fun... but that's just me... Posted by m121akuma on 04:28:2001 05:34 PM: I've noticed everyone is complaining that the game is to slow. Is the game bad symply because it's slow. SF2 (the origional, not turbo) wasn't very fast, yet it was still very good. Does a game, even a fighting game, need to be fast to be good? Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 05:39 PM: Street fighter 3 3rd strike is the best street fighter EVER only being equaled by Capcom vs SNK I like them both the best Equally to all those people who diss this game whats up dont you like a fighting game that requires alot of skill to master? Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 06:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by shin srwilson Street fighter 3 3rd strike is the best street fighter EVER only being equaled by Capcom vs SNK I like them both the best Equally to all those people who diss this game whats up dont you like a fighting game that requires alot of skill to master? Skill ain't shit...skill comes with practice. A good fighting game has to have a good balance of skill and strategy. Once you master the skills...then where do you go? We're talking about the games from a competition perspective. Apoc. Posted by hsien on 04:28:2001 07:09 PM: yeah i understand your point, in low-level of play 3s doesn't involve much strategy. Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 07:21 PM: I see where your comming from Apoc but this games great for learning skill I have mastered Gouki on this game and it took me alotlonger than it did in the Zero games but now I have mastered him I (and this is where the relvence of where you from there is)I play against other pro players and keep getting stronger and better and that for me is what makes Sf 3 3rd strike fun for me I feel i own everyone round here I want to go to Japan or America and fight the competetion there but like someone said 3rd strike isnt popular in the states anymore which is a shame its the same with Capcom vs SNK I have mastered my "Dark shoto" team and I want to travel and get even better by playing the Japanese etc thats what makes it all fun learninig these games. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 07:29 PM: quote: Originally posted by hsien yeah i understand your point, in low-level of play 3s doesn't involve much strategy. Ok, Hsien...I know you love the game. So why are you being so coy? You if anyone should be able to change my mind. Watson was just saying the other day how boring your matches would be. Don't YOU want another crack at the Japanese in 3s? You must have seen my posts on what makes 3s shitty. This is your 2nd post on this thread and you STILL aren't saying ANYthing. Don't you want to challenge what's been said? It just looks like you can't even do it. Why bother saying things like this w/o saying how it IS strategic at high levels of play and how turtling isn't generally the best strat for all but a couple characters like Yun. You yourself were called king turtle(albeit a mighty skillfull one)after the first 3s tourney. Is turtling the best strat for akuma then or not? Say something will you? Or r u hoping to play some exhibition matches where winning or losing means nothing at b5? Your input could mean a lot here. I get all excited when I hear you've posted...then it turns out to be nothing again. Look at it this way...you are getting owned right now. Your game is getting clowned and you're helpless to fight back? If you don't care why post at all. Hell, can a japanese player come in here and say something on the games behalf then? Weak sauce bro. I respect you as a player...but knowing you've been reading this and these are your replies? These other 3s players can't say anything...and you being one of, if not the only US player to have the knowledge to form a rebuttal; you are letting these guys down. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 07:41 PM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by shin srwilson [B]I see where your comming from Apoc but this games great for learning skill I have mastered Gouki on this game and it took me alotlonger than it did in the Zero games" K...can u do the BAS vc in any form consistantly in the arcade? There is no way that you can say mastering Gouki on 3s is harder than SFz3. On 3s you can form tactics with gouki that can be applied to most of the cast like using fireballs and hurricanes to bait parrying so you can break it with a super or grab and such. Where as I can name 15 different characters on Z3 that you would have to apply completely different strategies to. Keep in mind I'm not big on 3s. Perhaps if the game were fun for me personally I would've "dug deeper". But I've seen Gouki masters on 3s use the EXACT same set ups on just about every character in the game and just repeat them until they work. In A3 if you repeat set ups against a good player it's bad for you. Very bad. Without a tournament to validate your mastery it's simply a feeling that you have about it. Take Hsien...top US gouki player in 3s...you've never seen him take gouki anywhere in an a3 tournament. Maybe a3 isn't his game...but if it were easier to master gouki on z3 don't you think he would've been the US "Daigo"? Apoc. Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 07:49 PM: You said all Gouki players use the same set ups so what makes hsien so good then? (no offence hsien) Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 04:28:2001 07:59 PM: IMO Third strike just takes alot of time and devotion to master it.. once you master your character(s) it's a blast. I love it.. I'm a long time makoto fan and I love the ability to parry. when you've got next to no life it gives you the extra edge to come back.. which is one of the things I love about the game. With makoto I'd take some substantial energy hits from shoto's some time but the ability to parry my way out of any traps is excellent. I love the game. Posted by hsien on 04:28:2001 08:08 PM: uhh in austin we don't have a3 in our arcade since 2 years ago, i only have chances to play a3 when i travel to tournaments. but i still think my ryu/akuma now are among the best in us, you can ask choi/watson/valle if you want to. i think it's pointless to argue over the internet, so i'll just point out the facts. and the facts are, you can't turtle in 3s, i play other games like cvs/a3 and 3s is not my only game, i don't understand why you say only yun can't turtle, because you watched my vids? i like a3 and 3s both but i think 3s is a deeper game skillwise. maybe that's the reason why daigo only plays 3s/st and gave up on z3. i think 3s is a good game but you think otherwise, i think it's just a matter of opinon and taste. Posted by hsien on 04:28:2001 08:11 PM: i think it's much easier to master a3 v-gouki, just practice the VCs and footsies. there are many good a3 goukis in US but do you knwo any other good gouki in 3s? Posted by hsien on 04:28:2001 08:15 PM: have you seen the TX 3s tourny vids on srk? i'll explain all the strategies in the matches if you want me to. Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 08:23 PM: Hi hsien ,I heard quite alot about you you are a Gouki player like me yeah? thats cool alot of people over here in the UK say Gouki is cheap i think hes great and I have played and mastered Gouki over 7 years and I have dominated all in our arcades over here. I would be interested to hear some of your strategies with Gouki to see if they have any similarites to my fighting style. its sad that you live in the USA as i am looking for good competetion on SF3 TS and it would be cool to battle another (good) Gouki player as nobody likes him round here apart fom me. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 08:23 PM: quote: Originally posted by shin srwilson You said all Gouki players use the same set ups so what makes hsien so good then? (no offence hsien) Um...where did I say that? Quote me. No where did I say ALL gouki's use the same ones. And I'm sure the ones that do got them from hsien:P I'm pretty sure red fireball set-ups were common after only a few months. Apoc. Posted by BillyKane on 04:28:2001 08:27 PM: Woa, major Hsien dissing in here... You know what Apoc? Maybe he doesn't care about your opinion on the game. Maybe he has other things to do that posting in here since he probably can't make you like the game... He's not the guy who made Third Strike, why would he have to defend the game? Do you see Alex Valle defending MvC2, CvS or A3 in this forum? If I were him I'd just ignore this thread. All expert Akumas don't use the same setups. I just came back from a tourney and saw Akuma used in various ways... Offensive and defensive Akumas aren't the same at all. They don't use throws in the same way neither. All Akuma players aren't about the "Raging Demon" for instance... About strategy: as I said, I just came back from a tourney today (you can check, it was in Paris, France - Place d'Italie). I was REALLY surprised by some of the players there, esp. the one who won the tourney. He majorly won because of skill, but he wasn't random at all. He used big combos and switched characters EVERY fight, which confused his opponent. There was also this other player who made it to the finals: he won solely on stategy. He almost didn't parry anything and had a plan for the game -a defensive one- but still it was strategy. I still can't believe how this guy made it (he used Remy and Urien). He beat guys who were a lot more skilled than him, I think. He usually started by playing offensive and then defensive, turtling as you say. I guess bottom line is that TS is a defensive game, maybe that's why you don't like it. But I still don't think it's random... Lantis: That was a cheap shot, I'm not all about Third Strike!!! I even prefer Garou: MOTW to TS now! :P I usually defend Third Strike because most people who attack the game have weak arguments. But I have to admit that Apoc and the others have pretty good arguments -except for the "Hsien doesn't win in A3" part, I though that didn't make much sense cause TS is so much different from A3, and it isn't his game (so it doesn't prove that Akuma is harder to masterin A3; actually when I look at how much damage TS Akuma takes...)- and I apologize for the length of that sentence... As for me, I did alright at the tourney. I lost in the quarterfinals... The games were in 5 fights- 5 rounds. After winning the first 2 fights, I decided to pick Alex -even though I hadn't used him for 2 weeks ^_^'- and I didn't play very well. That let my opponent take the psychological win... After that, I started messing up (stress and fatigue). I guess I should've stuck to Chun-Li, stupid me! But we put up a great fight though. Third Strike is a pretty defensive game, and it does have a few problems (I decided to attack instead of waiting for my opponents to attack most of the time...) but it's still a pretty darn good and FUN game. Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 08:29 PM: Dont get funny with me Apoc! Posted by BillyKane on 04:28:2001 08:29 PM: Woa, it took me too long to write that... Ignore the parts about Hsien and Gouki... :P Posted by shin srwilson on 04:28:2001 08:32 PM: Apoc-you go on about other players doing the same set ups I dont use red fireball set ups I have my own style. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 09:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by hsien uhh in austin we don't have a3 in our arcade since 2 years ago, i only have chances to play a3 when i travel to tournaments. but i still think my ryu/akuma now are among the best in us, you can ask choi/watson/valle if you want to. i think it's pointless to argue over the internet, so i'll just point out the facts. and the facts are, you can't turtle in 3s, i play other games like cvs/a3 and 3s is not my only game, i don't understand why you say only yun can't turtle, because you watched my vids? i like a3 and 3s both but i think 3s is a deeper game skillwise. maybe that's the reason why daigo only plays 3s/st and gave up on z3. i think 3s is a good game but you think otherwise, i think it's just a matter of opinon and taste. First off hsien...you should know that I do talk to them aside from choi. Heck I grew up playing Mike. And as for US akumas? R U kidding me? We have a lot of Master akumas on A3 in the US? Where the heck are they all? I know of maybe 2 that are masters by US standards...and that's pushing it. I know a gazillion shoto players but only 3 do well in the US...watson/valle/choi. And they've played shotos on every game. Most shoto users have been playing for years and will never do well in competition. Valle has not mastered V_Akuma even...from his own words he can't do the BAS combo which would have won him A3 at b4. Watch the tape...choi gets hit by plenty vism trips which would've been ggpo for him had Alex been able to do it. Even our best player hasn't mastered him. About being one of the best in the us as a shoto on a3...how would I know? I'll take your word for it. But that's a lot for anyone to say until proven in a tourney...you'll know for sure at b5. But learning vcs is far from mastering. And if you would bring Watson up...and then say you can't turtle in 3s? Huh? Just days ago he said the opposite siting matches of you both as his example. I think there's a difference in the definition of turtling. Watson disagrees with you as of yesterday. And I didn't say Yun couldn't turtle at all? I said he COULD rush down. Hsien, I'm not looking for opinion here. I sited reasons why 3s was booty earlier on. I'm looking for specific reasons why it isn't. I come from the ol skool and like to be aggressive...turtling is definately a viable option in 3s and one that you were known for. I think there is a definate difference in definition on turtling between us all. From my definition and by Watsons...you turtle against the better players...yes you rush down most...but until the last vid(yes I saw it...you were awesome I had never seen you not turtle...but then I only paid attention to matches of you valle and watson. Maybe that's just your preference when playing aggressive players. A game you can't turtle in is A3 because of vism and the guard crush(no I'm not comparing games here just outlining anti-turtle features). Mike told me something about Japanese 3s and pointed out that chun li's there turtle with the low forward almost exclusively once charged with one super. I doubt they would do that if it wasn't a good strategy and that right there blows away your "can't turtle in 3s" comment. I would've liked it if you had told me WHY you couldn't turtle. Especially since you stated it as fact and especially since you've won tournaments doing so. You can't state something as fact and not back it up. But I appreciate your replies and hope this can go somewhere. Apoc. Posted by d33k on 04:28:2001 09:16 PM: as you all can see, people can keep expressing their opinions and facts. Nothing will be accomplished. It seems there are far more people here defending 3S then there are people against it, but I don't think its up to the people who defend the game to change the minds of those who don't like it. Like what Hsien said, if you don't like it, don't play it. Plain and simple. I think everyone should stop nit-picking at Apoc because he will continue to argue his viewpoint and not change it. He doesn't like the game. Now, Apoc, I guess you're hitting some soft spots with the 3S players because when you say the game doesn't take much strategy and skill, we are kinda taking it as if you think 3S players aren't skillful. P.S.: To say that Hsien is the person to change your mind simply because he's the best at it is unfair to those who aren't on his SKILL level but love the game as much as he does. All respect to Hsien for his accomplishments with this game, but I think others who play the game whole-heartedly could voice the same opinions. Perhaps for you to change your mind, you need to speak to someone with status. Posted by hsien on 04:28:2001 09:33 PM: i think watson is a little biased toward the game, he doesn't really like it but he plays it alot. Onuki's Chun Li(best in japan) doesn't turtle, it's really easy to do the c.foward-super trick, but what makes chun li so deadly is because of her mid range/close range game, chun li has too utilize her kara throw, standing rh, back fierce...etc. and it requires crazy amount of concentration. a turtle chun-li is not a good chun-li. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 09:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by d33k as you all can see, people can keep expressing their opinions and facts. Nothing will be accomplished. It seems there are far more people here defending 3S then there are people against it, but I don't think its up to the people who defend the game to change the minds of those who don't like it. Like what Hsien said, if you don't like it, don't play it. Plain and simple. I think everyone should stop nit-picking at Apoc because he will continue to argue his viewpoint and not change it." No...I will change it and have been prepared to since I started posting on this thread. "He doesn't like the game. Now, Apoc, I guess you're hitting some soft spots with the 3S players because when you say the game doesn't take much strategy and skill, we are kinda taking it as if you think 3S players aren't skillful." K...now you need to look at all of my posts and show me where I EVER said 3s was NOT skillfull. I've never even thought that...in fact 3s is almost all skill...I'd say 75% skill 25% strategy. P.S.: To say that Hsien is the person to change your mind simply because he's the best at it is unfair to those who aren't on his SKILL level but love the game as much as he does." Why is that? Just because you love a game does not mean you can break it down to a science. Hsien obviously has. And with all due respect...he's probably the only one that will be able to speak in terms I'll understand. If that makes any sense. "All respect to Hsien for his accomplishments with this game, but I think others who play the game whole-heartedly could voice the same opinions. Perhaps for you to change your mind, you need to speak to someone with status." Not necessarily. In fact most "with status" here agree with me. 3s isn't even worth the bother to most of them. For me to change my mind I'd have to be told of levels which I have not bothered to achieve and know nothing of. I can take my 2i Dudley and whoop on the average 3s player pretty automatically without having to think strategically. They are not going to be able to show me what makes the game great at higher levels. And in the US Hsien is probably the only player outside of Japan to have cared enough to attain that higher level...and from my view...which is the same as the general US players, it doesn't seem worth it. So Hsien is the only one who can offer that perspective from a factual standpoint outside of opinion. Posted by CgHuReInS on 04:28:2001 09:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by shin srwilson Apoc-you go on about other players doing the same set ups I dont use red fireball set ups I have my own style. Now, I like both 3S and A3, but I just wanna clear something up. That's not what Apoc said. He said that in 3S individual people use their personal tactics over and over and eventually they'll work, whereas in A3, if you keep using the same tactic over and over, you'll get owned because (presumably) the opponent will catch on an counter-VC you. Posted by Apoc on 04:28:2001 09:47 PM: quote: Originally posted by hsien i think watson is a little biased toward the game, he doesn't really like it but he plays it alot. Onuki's Chun Li(best in japan) doesn't turtle, it's really easy to do the c.foward-super trick, but what makes chun li so deadly is because of her mid range/close range game, chun li has too utilize her kara throw, standing rh, back fierce...etc. and it requires crazy amount of concentration. a turtle chun-li is not a good chun-li. This is what I need to hear bro...thanx. Now you say her mid/close range game...couldn't she simply match attacks to avoid any kind of parrying as well as outprioritize most moves in the game with moves like back+frc and cr.roundhouse...which would be in essense...turtling. And then once charged...live for the cr. forward into super? I'm sure not in all matches but why would this NOT work in MOST matches? Could you give me some examples of why matching attacks only when attacked won't work as a general strategy? Cuz we all know it works in the US. Apoc. Posted by Stuc2K on 04:28:2001 10:03 PM: The graphics are superior, the animation is TOP NOTCH (in every sense of the word), the characters are innovative, the gameplay is very balanced, and the soundtrack is BOSS. Lol...Third Strike is the greatest. Posted by Apoc on 04:29:2001 01:47 PM: quote: Originally posted by Xenster 3rd strike is not a bad game, those who think it is can't parry, can't kara cancel, and more than 4 frames per character animation are too much. 3s requires practice and patience.. two things hard to come by.. 2i was also a great game, it was also faster paced, but a bit more imbalanced. Uh...yeah...that's why most of the US top players dis it or don't play it. Simple minded assumptions. Go back and read through the thread. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 04:29:2001 02:07 PM: quote: Originally posted by BillyKane Woa, major Hsien dissing in here... You know what Apoc? Maybe he doesn't care about your opinion on the game. Maybe he has other things to do that posting in here since he probably can't make you like the game... He's not the guy who made Third Strike, why would he have to defend the game? Do you see Alex Valle defending MvC2, CvS or A3 in this forum? If I were him I'd just ignore this thread." Where did I dis Hsien or say he couldn't win in A3? And why would that be an issue in this thread anyway? In fact Hsien brought his other games up. I couldn't care less about that here. My point is solely to uncover what US players(even ones that went to Japan) obviously don't see. "All expert Akumas don't use the same setups. " Ugh...How many times should I say I never said this? Does anyone have a quote of me saying this? Cuz looking through the thread I don't find it. "I just came back from a tourney and saw Akuma used in various ways... Offensive and defensive Akumas aren't the same at all. They don't use throws in the same way neither. All Akuma players aren't about the "Raging Demon" for instance... About strategy: as I said, I just came back from a tourney today (you can check, it was in Paris, France - Place d'Italie). I was REALLY surprised by some of the players there, esp. the one who won the tourney. He majorly won because of skill, but he wasn't random at all. He used big combos and switched characters EVERY fight, which confused his opponent. There was also this other player who made it to the finals: he won solely on stategy. He almost didn't parry anything and had a plan for the game -a defensive one- but still it was strategy. I still can't believe how this guy made it (he used Remy and Urien). He beat guys who were a lot more skilled than him," Because being mostly defensive will get you far in 3s As far as I've seen. "I think. He usually started by playing offensive and then defensive, turtling as you say. I guess bottom line is that TS is a defensive game, maybe that's why you don't like it. But I still don't think it's random... Lantis: That was a cheap shot, I'm not all about Third Strike!!! I even prefer Garou: MOTW to TS now! :P I usually defend Third Strike because most people who attack the game have weak arguments. But I have to admit that Apoc and the others have pretty good arguments -except for the "Hsien doesn't win in A3" Hey bro...I don't mind you quoting me at all. But I certainly mind you MIS-Quoting me. Go back through the thread and tell me where you found that. That's total misrepresentation. I understand Hsien must have felt like a one game wonder or something because of how he might've taken SOMEthing I said...otherwise I have no clue why he brought up that he can play other games. I've played Hsien in A3...never once did I doubt he could play other games. " part, I though that didn't make much sense cause TS is so much different from A3, and it isn't his game (so it doesn't prove that Akuma is harder to masterin A3; actually when I look at how much damage TS Akuma takes...)- and I apologize for the length of that sentence... As for me, I did alright at the tourney. I lost in the quarterfinals... The games were in 5 fights- 5 rounds. After winning the first 2 fights, I decided to pick Alex -even though I hadn't used him for 2 weeks ^_^'- and I didn't play very well. That let my opponent take the psychological win... After that, I started messing up (stress and fatigue). I guess I should've stuck to Chun-Li, stupid me! But we put up a great fight though. Third Strike is a pretty defensive game, and it does have a few problems (I decided to attack instead of waiting for my opponents to attack most of the time...) but it's still a pretty darn good and FUN game." See but Hsien says it IS NOT a defensive game. So back it up! What's the problem with wanting him to back up the claim for ALL to see. He may open some eyes and change some opinions because he may have a clearer view than most on this subject. He doesn't HAVE to at all. I'd be curious why he would bother to post if he wasn't prepared to though. The only thing I can come up with is that he may not want everyone to realize HOW to play the game? I don't see many players that have a problem helping out. Why would he? He obviously wants to say something. I would have this conversation with him in person. Maybe it's hard to read my demeanor through words on a screen. Ppl have thought I've said plenty of things I haven't already. But had I the opportunity to have this conversation in person and he explained things to me...do you think "I" wouldn't post it? The whole point is to gain a new perspective for everyone. So everyone may benefit from his particular insight. How many top players should I name that have no problem helping the masses? Ok, then Apoc. Posted by K`yori on 04:29:2001 03:02 PM: SF3 3S is the 2nd best fightng game (personal opinion) next to KOF 99/2000. I however am a lot greater SF3 player than im a KOF player. 3S is slow.... damn wrong. Its slow paced because you guys play the game real slow. After a few months of practising at local arcades here, a round finishes in 20-30 sec (fastest setting). Really lots of quick parries, dashes and jump can make this game very fast that it could make your reaction time lag. the things that I really hate about 3s is somehow the throw system... throws have very high priority. It pisses me off when a shippujinrai kyakku gets cancelled because of a throw. Use it to your advantage... Makoto is perhaps the most annoying =) grapper.... her dash is damn long and combining a throw with it (karakuza or normal) can make your oponents head spin. another minus would be newbies dont stand a change against good players. unlike in KOF where newbies can at least depend on rolls to escape or make some damage that could take them to round 4 or 5, they cant do the same in 3s thus making them play something else that's much easier. Newbies (or those who are used to Alpha) somehow dont adapt quickly with the parry system. You should have seen this guys face when I parried his Akuma's heli kick super in air Posted by Stuc2K on 04:29:2001 08:19 PM: If you could see yourself doing an effective job of parrying something at the rate of say MvC2 and without the fluid animation, then you must be God...screw what everyone else thinks. If you like it, play it, if you don't, leave it in the store where it won't hurt anybody. Posted by Kamui on 04:30:2001 06:19 AM: Uh oh. I really hope this deosnt turn into a flame war. Hsien, Im very curious to know what your actual plan in 3s is. Ive seen you play many times and even played you many times offering you little to no challange at all, but even when i watch you play, i still see a guessing game, not a fighter. Other than Mopreme, who is constantly telling me that 3s is more than that(damnit Mark you better post!!! :P ) , please, i want to hear your explanation, why is this game better than what i think it is?. Apoc, despite me disliking 3s, i have to agree with Hsien, turtling isnt really valid in 3s, It deosnt win, even though it should be an option, another reason why i dont think the game is very good. Posted by NormalGuy on 04:30:2001 07:57 AM: I don't think it's guessing game either, it just makes you think what you just did before and try not to be predictable. Case in point, Alex knocks down the opponent, he has lots of options, he successfully power-bombs the opponent when he gets back, opponent falls down again. What to do next? This is where it might get the guessing game name IMO, what I do next is not random but a thought-out move. If the opponent has a instant super like the shin-shoryuken, my options are even less because I don't want to eat that super for free. My opponent is probably thinking is he going to power bomb me again as I get up, should I counter or should I block/parry? It's more of a mind game but definitely not guess, guessing is purely random and I don't think I ever throw something random because everything I do actually have a purpose. Charge meter, try to bait a jump, simply turtling, etc. I hope I made some sense in what I try to say but it's really hard to express what I think about 3S in words. I believe it's a really fun game to play against other people and it's a shame most people don't even play/like the game anymore. Like I said, if you don't understand anything above, I'll totally understand. Posted by Evil Gill on 04:30:2001 08:34 AM: levels of gameplay Great thread! Just some questions on the levels of experience and how this equates to gameplay. For instance - I hear people say that once you reach "expert" level you will find this game boring. How exactly do the experts play this game? As opposed to intermediates? Why are the japanese so damn good at this game? And why do they still enjoy it, since everyone thinks they are the true "experts"? Do the experts use a lot of throws? parries? combos? how about the intermediates? what style do the japanese tend to adopt? What is this frame data I hear that you have to study in order to own everyone? Posted by Yumi Saotome on 04:30:2001 08:50 AM: I think 3s is cool. I just suck at it. The only thing I have against it is the fact that everything deals way too much damage. It's like, make one mistake, and you're dead. Way too rigid. Maybe I won't complain as much when I get better, but whatever. Posted by Apoc on 04:30:2001 11:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by NormalGuy I don't think it's guessing game either, it just makes you think what you just did before and try not to be predictable. Case in point, Alex knocks down the opponent, he has lots of options, he successfully power-bombs the opponent when he gets back, opponent falls down again. What to do next? This is where it might get the guessing game name IMO, what I do next is not random but a thought-out move. If the opponent has a instant super like the shin-shoryuken, my options are even less because I don't want to eat that super for free. My opponent is probably thinking is he going to power bomb me again as I get up, should I counter or should I block/parry? It's more of a mind game but definitely not guess, guessing is purely random and I don't think I ever throw something random because everything I do actually have a purpose. Charge meter, try to bait a jump, simply turtling, etc. " Actually I've stated that it is educated guessing, which is not random. "I hope I made some sense in what I try to say but it's really hard to express what I think about 3S in words. I believe it's a really fun game to play against other people and it's a shame most people don't even play/like the game anymore. Like I said, if you don't understand anything above, I'll totally understand. Posted by Shotokan on 04:30:2001 12:30 PM: Actually, IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike. It's a lot better than MvC2 IMHO. We Americans base ourselves in total cheapness. Did you see the USA vs. JAPAN stuff? We decimated them in MvC2. That's not even a popular game in Japan. We're the ones that came up with the glitches and infinites and tactics. Japanese players know the games better than we do. Any regular Japanese Shmo' could beat a regular American Shmo' and seem god-like. They have great strategy and everything. I like to think that I have the mind of Japanese people.(Maybe, 'cause I hang with them from time to time.) I've become so "nice" that's it's really weird to me and rewarding also. I still can be a real di*k at times though. They're so humble that it KILLS ME! Also, 3rd Strike in Japan is one of the most popular. I like Urien and the Shotokans. I even play Oro and Remy. The game brings back a lot of fond memories of playing Street Fighter II on the 'cades and then just picking Ken, 'cause he was cooler, and throwing fireball after fireball while only switching it up with a jab one to fierce to strong one and when the tried to jump over all you had to do was do a strong Dragon Punch. Ofcorse the game is much more involved than that but, you know what I mean. MvC2 is good an all but, I just don't like the game at all. It just doesn't seem right. I'm good at it, ask my friends, but they blame me for being a cheap guy with infinites and the Proton Cannon. Fu*k them! I just think the game is too button masher friendly. -SHOTOKAN Posted by BillyKane on 04:30:2001 06:23 PM: Apoc: You probably missed that part, dude: "Woa, it took me too long to write that... Ignore the parts about Hsien and Gouki... :P" Posted by Lantis on 05:02:2001 02:34 PM: Billy Kane: Wha?! I wasn't talking about YOU! I was talking about our "common friend"...you know, the guy whose name begins with "S" and ends in "T"? The guy who likes to bash SNK and regard TS in high heaven? C'mon, you know I got nothing against you...what's up with that? Posted by Cipher on 05:02:2001 03:06 PM: Y iz 3rd strike bad? Its a deep game with cool concepts. parrying takes lotsa skill and practice. For this game, U gotta think more. It requires more skill to play than mvc its series. Anyone can learn to play mvc2 in a couple of days. but its not the case for TS. TS is a game for the intelligent, the strong and the skilled..... Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 03:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by Shotokan MvC2 is good an all but, I just don't like the game at all. It just doesn't seem right. I'm good at it, ask my friends, but they blame me for being a cheap guy with infinites and the Proton Cannon. Fu*k them! I just think the game is too button masher friendly. This makes a tremendous amount of sense. MvC2 is good...but you don't like it...and you're good...but it's button masher friendly. Uh-huh. You know, I can remember when I thought the Proton Cannon was overpowering. It was when I sucked at the game. MvC2 is not button-masher friendly in the least. The only thing a button-masher will get in MvC2 is occasionally random supers or team supers. And those are not good things. quote: Originally posted by Cipher Anyone can learn to play mvc2 in a couple of days. but its not the case for TS. TS is a game for the intelligent, the strong and the skilled..... Ah, yes, fantastic thinking. Not to mention incorrect! I love it. Watch in horror as this thread turns into yet another "3S is good because MvC2 is bad!!!" thread. The thought at work there is just astounding. I'm going to apply it to the rest of my life, as well, because it's so logical. Tea is good because coffee is bad! I like cookies because I don't like ice cream! Shaving rules, skiing sucks ass! Up with light bulbs, down with shampoo! It all makes so much more sense now! Apoc, you have your answer! Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 05:02:2001 04:51 PM: honestly I think both games are cool.. the only problem I have with MvC2 vs third strike is this: *sigh* I spent the last 3 years of my life really busting my ass to be ready to compete in three series games.. I finally nailed down my makoto and yang to a point where they may not be tournament champions.. but they were tournament ready. It was hard to come up with new stuff in Third strike but it was definitely possible to have your own technique even for the same character. One day I gave JustinW second round on my makoto and I watched him do something.. but I tailored it and added my own stuff and it was hot. * Genesis 1:24 "And on the seventh day green trench stood before his works and saw his makoto was good.." * Then 3series is dropped.. and dropped for reasons that just didn't make sense to me. Me and alot of people put a lot of work .. years of work into three series.. and now it's just gone.. and why? I've heard reasons like "parrying sucks, Not enough old characters, parrying sucks, the characters looked weird, the game is too slow etc." I think alot of people feel that the timing of the 3 series was supposed to be like the vs games and that mislead a lot of people. Honestly yes, yes I do aggree with the people that say third strike takes a bit more skill but thats just my own personal opinion. MORE SKILL THAN AVERAGE not necesarily more skill than mvc2. I know Justin, Auturo, Ohjay, MikeD, Josh and others all have tremendous amounts of skill so I know that saying Mvc2 is just a game for the non skilled is completely bullshit. Infinites are hard, if you think it's hard to get out of them it's even harder to learn them. I see now that third strike is getting some negative press from gamers, more and more people are picking it up and saying.. you know..it's not that bad. I hope we see it return to tournies just because it really is the only game of it's class.. I'd love to see second impact return also but I think that's asking for too much. Those are my personal opinions on the matter. It's soo hard to come out with something origional in MvC2 without worring about being rapped by 4x hyper viper beam. I'm a big advocate of 2nd and 3rd teir characters.. I'm a bigtime hulk tron sentinel user but after fighting in chinatown I realized that you just can't get very far without cable. and that's lame. It's not like that in any other game then MvC2. I never remember a time in second impact where people was saying.. "You just won't get very far if you don't use ken" No. Even in the MVC1 you never heard anyone say things like.. oh without gambit you'll never win. IMO character variety is gone because capcom fucked up and threw everyone together and didn't bother to balance things out a tad. Am I saying that kobun should take the same damage as cable? No not at all.. But should cable's air hyper viper beam be limited to 2 and then holding back would block it? Maybe. But would it be too much to ask for a complete invincibilty frame for going up on a gamacrush??? I mean come on .. you can mash out of it.. why not some invincibility. I fancy plenty of people would still complain no matter what changes happen. But I wish we could see a greater variety in character choices. Of course there aren't any incentives to bring people like hayato, hulk roll to a tourney cause of varying reasons. I guess I've stated my case and I'll leave things at that. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 05:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by The Green Trench Coat honestly I think both games are cool.. the only problem I have with MvC2 vs third strike is this: This was never 3S v. MvC2. The only reason it ever becomes 3S v. MvC2 is because people who only like 3S get upset that MvC2 is popular. This thread was about 3S, in and of its own merit. quote: *sigh* I spent the last 3 years of my life really busting my ass to be ready to compete in three series games.. [snip] Then 3series is dropped.. and dropped for reasons that just didn't make sense to me. [snip] Games die, new ones come out. I still think DOOM is the best tournament FPSer of all time. And I've heard of one tournament for it in the US in the last two years. Whereas you still see 3S tourneys here and there. And just because other people stopped playing it doesn't mean you have to, if you love it so much. quote: Honestly yes, yes I do aggree with the people that say third strike takes a bit more skill but thats just my own personal opinion. MORE SKILL THAN AVERAGE not necesarily more skill than mvc2. This became skill in 3S v. skill in MvC2 when? I must have missed that page. quote: I know Justin, Auturo, Ohjay, MikeD, Josh and others all have tremendous amounts of skill so I know that saying Mvc2 is just a game for the non skilled is completely bullshit. Infinites are hard, if you think it's hard to get out of them it's even harder to learn them. a) by definition it is impossible to get out of an infinite based on your skill. The only ways out of an infinite are to die or to dizzy. b) Uh, I've seen them all play, some in person, some on tape, along with many other top players. And the ability to do infinites is not what makes a player good at MvC2. quote: I see now that third strike is getting some negative press from gamers, more and more people are picking it up and saying.. you know..it's not that bad. I hope we see it return to tournies just because it really is the only game of it's class.. I'd love to see second impact return also but I think that's asking for too much. Return to tourneys? We're having one in Houston on May 20th! It's part of the Midwest Regional! I'm sure CTF might have a few more. Some Universities in Cali hold them periodically. quote: Those are my personal opinions on the matter. It's soo hard to come out with something origional in MvC2 without worring about being rapped by 4x hyper viper beam. I'm a big advocate of 2nd and 3rd teir characters.. I'm a bigtime hulk tron sentinel user but after fighting in chinatown I realized that you just can't get very far without cable. and that's lame. a) Sentinel is top tier with a big damn bullet. b) Your Cable statement is not true. Cable is not unbeatable. If anything, he makes the game more interesting. He makes you think. quote: It's not like that in any other game then MvC2. I never remember a time in second impact where people was saying.. "You just won't get very far if you don't use ken" You're right. In 2I it wasn't Ken, it was Akuma. quote: No. Even in the MVC1 you never heard anyone say things like.. oh without gambit you'll never win. IMO character variety is gone because capcom fucked up and threw everyone together and didn't bother to balance things out a tad. You're right. People never said that you wouldn't win without Gambit. They said you'd never win without Strider, RV, DWM, or Wolverine. quote: Am I saying that kobun should take the same damage as cable? No not at all.. But should cable's air hyper viper beam be limited to 2 and then holding back would block it? Maybe. But would it be too much to ask for a complete invincibilty frame for going up on a gamacrush??? I mean come on .. you can mash out of it.. why not some invincibility. Along that line of thinking, you know, I really like Necro. It shouldn't be so easy to red parry his moves. And I really like Twelve, he shouldn't suck so bad. You're just playing favorites. quote: I fancy plenty of people would still complain no matter what changes happen. But I wish we could see a greater variety in character choices. Of course there aren't any incentives to bring people like hayato, hulk roll to a tourney cause of varying reasons. I guess I've stated my case and I'll leave things at that. There's greater variety by far in MvC2 tourney results than there were in MvC1. And I never see anyone besides Chun-Li, Akuma, Yun, Yang, Ryu, or Ken win the finals of big US 3S tournies. Why did you bring this up? This IS NOT 3S v. MvC2. Why does every thread about 3S end up being that? Oh, right, because 3S fans can't handle it being popular. I used to be the same way. Then I started playing MvC2, and realized I didn't know what I was talking about. By trying to prove MvC2 inferior, you're not going to somehow make 3S "better" and win a prize. Posted by BillyKane on 05:02:2001 05:40 PM: Dr Deelite: Hey dude, don't make generalizations such as "TS players talk crap about MvC2 cause they can't handle it being popular". That's just stupid TS fanboys you're talking about here! I for once am not like that (you can check my posts, no reference to MvC2 at all...) and my friends aren't neither. I agree that "what makes TS so bad?" has nothing to do with MvC2... If MvC2 is popular, that's a good thing for the MvC2 fans... All I'm asking for is give TS some love... Seriously, what's wrong with generalizations like that is that they can never be true. I am a fan of most Capcom games anyway, so I guess I don't fit your explanation... Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 05:02:2001 05:43 PM: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite This was never 3S v. MvC2. The only reason it ever becomes 3S v. MvC2 is because people who only like 3S get upset that MvC2 is popular. This thread was about 3S, in and of its own merit. First of all ... calm that shit down. The general tone of the message before mine was some guy talking something about Thirdstrike is a game for the mind and Mvc2 is masher friendly. Games die, new ones come out. I still think DOOM is the best tournament FPSer of all time. And I've heard of one tournament for it in the US in the last two years. Whereas you still see 3S tourneys here and there. And just because other people stopped playing it doesn't mean you have to, if you love it so much. And I'm not going to. Nobody can make me do anything I don't want to. As far as training for tournaments was the direction of my comments.. calm that down. This became skill in 3S v. skill in MvC2 when? I must have missed that page. likely. a) by definition it is impossible to get out of an infinite based on your skill. The only ways out of an infinite are to die or to dizzy. b) Uh, I've seen them all play, some in person, some on tape, along with many other top players. And the ability to do infinites is not what makes a player good at MvC2. a) Not saying that they do infinites.. i'm saying that it's hard to do them. and you can get out of an infinite if you push the othe person off there controls... fuck.. I can even win like that. b)Lucky you. And I"M NOT SAYING THAT.. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT INFINITES ARE A PART OF THAT GAME AND THEY TAKE SKILL TO MASTER.. JUST LEARNING CHARACTER STRATEGIES IN THIRD STRIKE TAKE SKILL TO MASTER... DAMN calm that down. [/b] Return to tourneys? We're having one in Houston on May 20th! It's part of the Midwest Regional! I'm sure CTF might have a few more. Some Universities in Cali hold them periodically. a) Sentinel is top tier with a big damn bullet. b) Your Cable statement is not true. Cable is not unbeatable. If anything, he makes the game more interesting. He makes you think. Riiight. You're right. In 2I it wasn't Ken, it was Akuma. LOL Akuma LOL You're right. People never said that you wouldn't win without Gambit. They said you'd never win without Strider, RV, DWM, or Wolverine. Whoa calm that down how many characters were in that vs game. you just mentioned 4 characters and I don't remember seeing Wolive in tourney matches at that time.. maybe I missed that. Along that line of thinking, you know, I really like Necro. It shouldn't be so easy to red parry his moves. And I really like Twelve, he shouldn't suck so bad. You're just playing favorites. of course it wouldn't occur to you.. the leading authority on what should and shouldn't be in a game, that maybe 12 shouldn't suck so bad.. and maybe necro shouldn't be able to be red parried so easily. There's greater variety by far in MvC2 tourney results than there were in MvC1. And I never see anyone besides Chun-Li, Akuma, Yun, Yang, Ryu, or Ken win the finals of big US 3S tournies. You mentioned 6 characters from a game that has how many? that's what I thought. and How many characters are in mvc2? Why did you bring this up? This IS NOT 3S v. MvC2. Why does every thread about 3S end up being that? Oh, right, because 3S fans can't handle it being popular. I used to be the same way. Then I started playing MvC2, and realized I didn't know what I was talking about. Maybe you still don't know what you are talking about. again Calm it down people, in my message I stated positive things about mvc2.. I don't know why you are trying to paint me as an mvc2 hater just because I like third strike. Whoa... calm it down. By trying to prove MvC2 inferior, you're not going to somehow make 3S "better" and win a prize. [/B] Who said anything about mvc2 being inferior or did you in your infinite wisdom not realize THEY ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMES, DIFFERENT STYLES OF PLAY AND ALL. DID I EVER MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT "Mvc2 sucks cause you can't parry?" NO did I ever mention anything about MvC2 players suck at Third strike NO Am I trying to change anyones mind NO 3 times in my message I said these are all my personal opinion. and you aren't gonna win any awards for trying to change my mind Calm that shit down. [/QUOTE] Posted by BillyKane on 05:02:2001 05:44 PM: Oh and Lantis, sorry about that bro, I totally misunderstood your ealier post... I thought it was weird as well, but heh, you never know... Anyways, these are good arguments against Shadowgeist (there I said it ), but he'll probably reply by: "KOF [sucks] 3 Kyo clones!?! Why not start a BOYS BAND!!! Ralf does Galactica Phantom-100% combo kobun steal my wallet /me hits kobun" Or something among these lines... Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 05:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by BillyKane Dr Deelite: Hey dude, don't make generalizations such as "TS players talk crap about MvC2 cause they can't handle it being popular". That's just stupid TS fanboys you're talking about here! Agreed, and I've read all your posts here. However, go do a search for 3S-related topics in Gaming Discussion, you'll see what I mean. Just about every thread about 3S devolves into what I described. Sorry for including you, as a 3S fan, in the generalization. But my generalization is not unfounded. And it applies only to the people I described, a category you do not fall under, as evidenced by your posts. For the record, I play both games a hell of a lot. It just bothers the shit out of me when people use one to knock the other, because it's stupid and it doesn't make sense. Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 05:02:2001 05:50 PM: Originally posted by BillyKane Dr Deelite: Hey dude, don't make generalizations such as "TS players talk crap about MvC2 cause they can't handle it being popular". That's just stupid TS fanboys you're talking about here! I agree that "what makes TS so bad?" has nothing to do with MvC2... If MvC2 is popular, that's a good thing for the MvC2 fans... All I'm asking for is give TS some love... Exactly my point.. I harbor no resentment for MvC2 I was just stressing my point in contrast to another popular game out. MvC2 is great.. I play it every day. But I like third strike too. I sing mvc2's praises sometimes too so all this painting of Green trench as a hater is garbage. Just relax that shit. Posted by BillyKane on 05:02:2001 05:54 PM: No prob guys, I just wanted to let that out... All of us TS fans aren't uneducated and jealous I agree about your point about TS threads though, DR. Deelite. This is the main reason why I don't post here much anymore. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 06:02 PM: "First of all ... calm that shit down. The general tone of the message before mine was some guy talking something about Thirdstrike is a game for the mind and Mvc2 is masher friendly." Meaning what? "likely." Likely I missed that page? So that page was here? Indeed. "a) Not saying that they do infinites.. i'm saying that it's hard to do them. and you can get out of an infinite if you push the othe person off there controls... fuck.. I can even win like that. b)Lucky you. And I"M NOT SAYING THAT.. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT INFINITES ARE A PART OF THAT GAME AND THEY TAKE SKILL TO MASTER.. JUST LEARNING CHARACTER STRATEGIES IN THIRD STRIKE TAKE SKILL TO MASTER... DAMN calm that down." By listing only infinites as a method of success in MvC2, you imply that this is all that is required. And it sounds like you need to calm down. "Riiight." Indeed, I'm right. Sentinel is top tier and Cable is beatable. Huge surprise. "LOL Akuma LOL" Not sure what to make of this. So, you're saying Akuma WASN'T the strongest character in 2I? "Whoa calm that down how many characters were in that vs game. you just mentioned 4 characters and I don't remember seeing Wolive in tourney matches at that time.. maybe I missed that." No. I listed five characters. Strider is one, RV = Red Venom, so that's two, DWM is dual or double War Machine, two more characters, and Wolverine is another. Five characters. And, uh, Wolvie was all over MvC1 results. Maybe you did miss that. "of course it wouldn't occur to you.. the leading authority on what should and shouldn't be in a game, that maybe 12 shouldn't suck so bad.. and maybe necro shouldn't be able to be red parried so easily." It wouldn't occur to me what, that we can't just change around the games to our liking? That did occur to me, which is why I said that. The games are how they are. Saying that you'd like to change this and that does nothing but waste your breath. "You mentioned 6 characters from a game that has how many? that's what I thought. and How many characters are in mvc2?" Once again, your phrasing is cryptic and makes little sense. 3S has 18 characters, and I mention 6 as cropping up most frequently in results. Now, MvC2 has 56 characters...and I've seen AT LEAST 30 of the win major tournaments at one point or another. So, uh, what are you saying? Does "that's what I thought" mean, "you were right, Doc Dee, MvC2 does have greater tournament variety?" "Maybe you still don't know what you are talking about. again Calm it down people, in my message I stated positive things about mvc2.. I don't know why you are trying to paint me as an mvc2 hater just because I like third strike. Whoa... calm it down." Saying that Marvel 2 boils down to infinites, Cable, and little variety does not strike me as a positive series of statements. And you're not even forming complete thoughts. If anyone else can tell me what some of Green's statements meant, please, I implore you. I cannot. "Who said anything about mvc2 being inferior or did you in your infinite wisdom not realize THEY ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMES, DIFFERENT STYLES OF PLAY AND ALL." Yeah, anyone with a brain would realize that's exactly what I've always meant. Hence, my aversion to even seeing them in the same post, being compared, if indirectly. "DID I EVER MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT "Mvc2 sucks cause you can't parry?" NO did I ever mention anything about MvC2 players suck at Third strike NO Am I trying to change anyones mind NO 3 times in my message I said these are all my personal opinion. and you aren't gonna win any awards for trying to change my mind" Not trying to change your mind. You didn't say that MvC2 sucks because you can't parry. You did fault it's variety and its gameplay, though, in an indirect comparison to 3S. "Calm that shit down." Only person who needs to calm down is you. I doubt anyone would disagree with me there. Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 05:02:2001 06:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dr. Deelite [/B] Whatever. I made all my points. If you want to start picking apart my messages to create your own virtual soap box have fun. I can post here just like anyone else who registered and I intend to. I stated my own personal opinion which showed more than clearly that I play and enjoy both games. I mentioned infinites.. and cable.. and all of a sudden It's "Well theres more to this game than infinites and cable." Sure is. But throwing a truth I didn't mention into your messages to make your self seem "Holier than though isn't a game that i play, or take lightly". Anybody who want's to break my previous messages down to a more understandble form for De to enjoy is welcome to try. Try drawing some pictures big use big letters. Gym time.. I'm out. Posted by jedirobb on 05:02:2001 06:19 PM: so anyways - parrying fireballs is what sucks about sf3 - i think you should be able to parry "normal" moves - punches kicks - hurricane etc... but fireballs are all about zoning, remove them and you make the game suck... sf invented the fireball - it should be a threat to someone near or far - thats why 3d fighters suck - sidestepping... no longer is a projectile part of the fighting equation - except as and ender to a combo... my 2 cents... = ) Posted by ShinEFF on 05:02:2001 06:27 PM: Um, parrying a fireball still allows for 'zoneing'. It's not like you parry the fireball and all of the sudden you 'magically teleport' right next to your opponent. But I do agree, logically, how can you 'parry energy'? Posted by aNaKaRiS 4 hIrE on 05:02:2001 06:30 PM: ... you got a point... fireballs should not be able to be parried, however, if you do that, how would you classify Ibuki's super shuve/fireball? parriable or non-parriable? Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 05:02:2001 06:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by ShinEFF But I do agree, logically, how can you 'parry energy'? Dragon ball. probably the same principle. Posted by aNaKaRiS 4 hIrE on 05:02:2001 06:31 PM: hehe true... how DO you parry energy? Posted by ShinEFF on 05:02:2001 06:35 PM: I could understand if specific charactors could parry (energy) progectile attacks. Ex: Bison*, Akuma, Rose* But otherwise I find it hard to stomach otherwise. *if they were in the game Posted by jedirobb on 05:02:2001 06:36 PM: what i meant that fireballs that are either blocked or jumped over are used to set up your pattern.. if they can nonchalantly just parry all of them away - with no repercussions... it takes away from what it is... a poke/setup - offensive weapon... (defensive means you are losing - you are not in control - so i wont address that) anyways - there it is.. = ) Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 06:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by The Green Trench Coat Whatever. I made all my points. If you want to start picking apart my messages to create your own virtual soap box have fun. Thanks, I will. What points? "LOL Akuma LOL" is a point? You said you're not comparing MvC2 to 3S. Well, the first sentence of your first post on this page was: honestly I think both games are cool.. the only problem I have with MvC2 vs third strike is this: That's kind of a direct comparison. And, in this particular case, it's not favorable for MvC2. You make this statement shortly thereafter: Honestly yes, yes I do aggree with the people that say third strike takes a bit more skill but thats just my own personal opinion. And, while you do state that this is your opinion, which you are entitled entirely to, which game you feel takes more skill has no bearing on the thread topic, which was, "What EXACTLY makes Third Strike so bad?" The only statement you make that supports that MvC2 takes skill is this: Infinites are hard, if you think it's hard to get out of them it's even harder to learn them. Now, that casts a negative light on the game right there, implying that high-level play is all infinites. You made the following statement: I'm a big advocate of 2nd and 3rd teir characters.. I'm a bigtime hulk tron sentinel user but after fighting in chinatown I realized that you just can't get very far without cable. Indicating your style of play (underdog characters), and basically said that Cable is unbeatable. I replied by pointing out that Sentinel, in fact, is top tier (happens to be near the top of top tier, no less), and thusly an underdog by no means, and I also stated that Cable makes the game more of a challenge, and forces one to think. I said that he is in fact beatable, which he certainly is. Your heartfelt response: Riiight. Which I was, strangely enough. At one point, I mentioned that this thread has nothing to do with the level of skill required in Marvel 2, stacked against the level of skill required in 3S. I sarcastically mentioned that I must have missed whenever that happened. Your reply: likely. Could you show me where that was, then? I can't seem to find it. You did prove that you don't know too much about MvC1, though. Which is good. That game's not really being discussed here, anyway, save for that you brought it up as being varied, which it isn't. When I talked about the main characters you see in 3S results, you said: You mentioned 6 characters from a game that has how many? that's what I thought. and How many characters are in mvc2? You act as though a point is being proven, but I don't see it. And the answer to your querie there is 56. What was your point? Now, even though you didn't put enough content in there for me to be certain, I'm assuming you mean that 6 tournament tested characters out of 18 is better than 25-30 tournament tested characters out of 56. How that's better, I'll never know. It's not a better percentage, nor is it a better overall sum. There were a few other things, but they were relatively minor. Those were the points that puzzled me the most. Tip, for future reference: when you say that XX isn't the best character in the game, basically, and I say that YY is, a suitable response for debate is not, "LOL YY LOL." At least, not on this planet. Posted by CWFPresidentAri on 05:02:2001 06:49 PM: You know what really makes SFIII 3S so bad? For real? The presence of games like MvC2. Furious button-mashing, traps and 30- 40- and 50-some-hit super combos have become an addiction, it seems. Therefore, a game that requires thinking and strategy over balls-out offense is not something most gamers are used to. It's the dependency on stuff like I mentioned that make 3S so bad, not the game itself. My theory is that if 3S came out before some of the crossover games, most people would've taken the time to truly appreciate how good the game is. Posted by TS on 05:02:2001 07:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by CWFPresidentAri You know what really makes SFIII 3S so bad? For real? The presence of games like MvC2. Furious button-mashing, traps and 30- 40- and 50-some-hit super combos have become an addiction, it seems. Therefore, a game that requires thinking and strategy over balls-out offense is not something most gamers are used to. It's the dependency on stuff like I mentioned that make 3S so bad, not the game itself. My theory is that if 3S came out before some of the crossover games, most people would've taken the time to truly appreciate how good the game is. SF3 came out before 3/4 of the VS games. And my theory is that a lot of people would still like A3 or CvS or MvC2 better. And as Apoc said earlier, point out a 3S strategy, and we'll see if Apoc can back up his statement that the game has no real strats. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 07:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by CWFPresidentAri You know what really makes SFIII 3S so bad? For real? The presence of games like MvC2. Furious button-mashing, traps and 30- 40- and 50-some-hit super combos have become an addiction, it seems. Therefore, a game that requires thinking and strategy over balls-out offense is not something most gamers are used to. It's the dependency on stuff like I mentioned that make 3S so bad, not the game itself. My theory is that if 3S came out before some of the crossover games, most people would've taken the time to truly appreciate how good the game is. AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE E!!! *kaboom!* My, my, you did not just say that, did you? You did? You know, anyone who is going to play MvC2 like a "furious button-mashing" random super-combo game with constant offense if not exactly going to be a sterling addition to the ranks of the SF3 elite, are they? If someone plays MvC2 like that, then they just flat-out suck as a player, period. If someone thinks that is the method with which MvC2 is played, then they haven't the first clue what they are talking about, and I wonder what they are doing here. I've played both games for a long time, and played them both against damn good people. At no point - ever - does MvC2 devolve into what you've described. Nor does the inherent flashiness of MvC2 - which you seem to be unable to see beyond - effect either its value as a good fighter, or SF3's potential. You want to see why SF3 failed competitively? There's this guy, his name is Jason, his posting name is Apoc. I think he already posted in here once or twice. I think he posted something about what some people consider to be wrong with SF3. I don't remember it having a damn thing to do with Marvel 2. He's right, and you people are so off-target, it's frustrating. MvC2 is for button-mashers...where are you playing? Mulberry, Arkansas? Who are you playing? Five year-olds? Jesus Christ. 3S in no fashion takes more thought or strategy than MvC2, which is almost ALL thought and strategy. 3S is almost exclusively reactionary skill and execution. And that's it. You want a comparison, there's an accurate one. What has Apoc been asking for? For someone to tell him WHERE THE STRATEGY IS IN 3S!!! NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS MADE A REALISTIC ATTEMPT AT DOING THIS! Instead, there are posts like the one I quoted, which prove that many people on here apparently don't even play fighters, and that they haven't read the thread anyway. Excuse me, I have to take a nap. This forum makes me drowsy. Posted by TS on 05:02:2001 07:14 PM: Apoc- To play Devil's Advocate for a minute you say that 3S encourages turtling...well judging by the footage I've seen of Hsien and Mopreme, they seem to be very, very offensive. So if the best players in the country are playing dash-n-poke-n-throw, how could you say that 3S is a turtle game? Posted by Stuc2K on 05:02:2001 07:18 PM: Third Strike and turtling don't even belong in the same sentence...that's just absurd. Third Strike is all about "defense is the best offense", but that doesn't constitute turtling at all. Third Strike is the best because sometimes you need aggression and sometimes you need regression. It's about skill while most other fighting games today are about tactics.... Posted by Kamui on 05:02:2001 07:23 PM: Hahaha "What has Apoc been asking for? For someone to tell him WHERE THE STRATEGY IS IN 3S!!! NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS MADE A REALISTIC ATTEMPT AT DOING THIS!" No joke. Next there going to be telling you "I have this really cool strategy where i jump in and do nothing, then i land and throw!!! Im a genious!!!". Seriously though, Im sure Hsien or Mopreme(stop bieng lazy and post)have good reasons as to why the game has even an smigget of strategy left to utilize, but there not around...Instead we have to deal with some jerk that tried to steal Christmas(J/K Grinch). Posted by DarthSalamander on 05:02:2001 07:27 PM: Um I'm not a big 3rd Strike player so if this is wrong excuse it, but aren't most Chun Li players pretty turtlish, just abusing her high priority moves while building meter, waiting for the opponent to do something so they can land a c.forward, #2 super? Posted by ShinEFF on 05:02:2001 07:29 PM: Hahaha, turtleing in SF3 = suicide!!! Sure the best offence is a good defence.. But uh... Use your head folks!! With the ammount of overheads/throws/jump-ins there are a turtle is ROAD KILL. Posted by Stuc2K on 05:02:2001 07:33 PM: I play Chun Li.....never lost a match with her in third strike...I don't turtle. I play the air. Her Kara cancel is very good so I abuse it along with her jump ins which out prioritize man of the others. You are right about that super though...when a good Chun player is in a position to do it, we always take the initiative. There are too many overheads and good jump ins for you to have any success in turtling. Not to mention throws.... Posted by DarthSalamander on 05:02:2001 07:35 PM: Ok. Thanks for the info. Posted by ShinEFF on 05:02:2001 07:41 PM: Yeah, I play Chun Li quite a bit to and I'd say my style is more "reaction" then anything. If you jump at me, I'm going to either: Sweep or hit you with a standing MK(holding back). She's got a VERY confusing projectile attack game when used effectivly.. And nothing beats her lighting-kick/Spinning bird in-the-corner-strats.... Chun Li Rox in SF3. I've NEVER played her before until this version of SF. Posted by el_diablo on 05:02:2001 08:13 PM: you know what makes the S so bad???? the 2nd impact!!!! taht game was sublime: more speed, more combos, more attack solutions.... i don't understand why they've done a such shitty game as 3S after the 2nd impact!!! don't understand..... Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 08:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by TS Apoc- To play Devil's Advocate for a minute you say that 3S encourages turtling...well judging by the footage I've seen of Hsien and Mopreme, they seem to be very, very offensive. So if the best players in the country are playing dash-n-poke-n-throw, how could you say that 3S is a turtle game? Actually...aside from these videos(which I have seen) every tournament that I've been to(at least 4 I've seen Hsien play in) and more coincidentily EVERY tournament before US players went to Japan there was an incredible amount of turtling. And as I stated before when it came to better players...I'd see hsien turtle left and right(very skillfully mind you...make sure when you read you don't think I'm talking about hsien himself...I'm speaking of the game). Were these videos before or after Japan? Ok, then. US didn't care about the game well before then really aside from 3 major areas. And most all round sf players dumped 3s to the side WELL before Japan. Obviously Hsien learned something in Japan. Obviously the Japanese dove into the game more...similar to how we did in mvc2...however, I repeat...aside from this one video set...and even COUNTING reports on the japanese players...turtling is a very dominating strategy in 3s. And whether you'd like to admit it or not...rushing down takes much more skill to be effective than turtling. That's why Hsien first got noticed for his turtling ability and he made turtling popular on 3s. Not because he couldn't dash and poke but because turtling got him his necessary wins first. Some 3s players didn't see his cali tourney stuff...so some 3s players said he didn't turtle...and were promptly laughed at by all who witnessed him in cali. Against lesser opponents he didn't turtle I hear. Turtling should always be an effective strategy...but not the dominant strategy in the game. And aside from a few select characters...that's what I see when the match is very serious. Those videos are the exception...certainly not the norm. I doubt it would've been looking that way had Alex and Watson played in that one AND and had we not seen japanese play. Watching the Japanese play didn't inspire the majority of our elite at all. They still couldn't care less...Hsien ALWAYS liked the game...even when it was all about turtling to win. SO of course Hsien was inspired. ANYone who liked the game before going to Japan most likely liked it MORE afterward. But it didn't do much to change the opinions of those who already disliked it. They had a lot of tactics the us hadn't seen is all. Just like we did in mvc2. But nothing to make them think they were all wrong about the game. Mike does NOT play the game a lot. He never needed to...he'd just play a lot before a major tourney. Just so there's no confusion there. I'm sure that I am wrong about 3s...but no one will explain why or how. And probably can't. Maybe some are confusing tactics with strategy on the whole. I fyou haven't seen certain tactics you'll get owned...but if you've seen it enough you can't rely on tactics...you need that overall gameplan. Japan owned with kara Makoto tactics that we had not seen and turtle low forward chun li...which is just good in general. I wish some of the japanese players would come in here to educate. I probably am one that cares least about 3s. But I would still like it in b5. Just to dignify our loss to Japan and perhaps entice more Japanese players to come. What are folks afraid of in this thread? Educate us all please. Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 08:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by ShinEFF Hahaha, turtleing in SF3 = suicide!!! Sure the best offence is a good defence.. But uh... Use your head folks!! With the ammount of overheads/throws/jump-ins there are a turtle is ROAD KILL. What r u smoking? Throws? Tech once...then you have to get all the way back in. Overheads? You must play some slow ass ppl...I agree they are still good somewhat...but it is also true that against most good players overheads(universal) are parry bait. Your comp is slow. Jump ins? What are you gonna do if I block? See...generally you're gonna either attack/try and parry anti-air/land throwing or land overhead. All of which is pretty simple...aside from the games' pixies you didn't say jack. You jump in I don't do anything but wait for the throw and then the kara and I tech the throw AFTER I see it avoiding the down parry feint. There you go...I suggest you use your head...if this was a well thought out post I would've had to think harder to reply since I don't even play the darn thing. And when I do...it's out of complete boredom in the whee hours of the morning just to see how many perfects I can get. ANd this reply took all of 10 seconds to think up against your anti-turtle theory. Come on now...get serious. Apoc. Posted by jedirobb on 05:02:2001 08:39 PM: apoc - like the matrix - apoc? = ) Posted by ShinEFF on 05:02:2001 08:44 PM: Oh my god... I must have forgotten! You'd be reading my mind all the while we're playing! So you'd know exactly when I was going to do what! Hell, I guess trying to do 'moves' against you is stupid too.. You'll just "block them all", or parry them since you know EXACTLY what I'm going to do and when.. Get real moron. Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 08:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by ShinEFF Oh my god... I must have forgotten! You'd be reading my mind all the while we're playing! So you'd know exactly when I was going to do what! Hell, I guess trying to do 'moves' against you is stupid too.. You'll just "block them all", or parry them since you know EXACTLY what I'm going to do and when.. Get real moron. Um...no...seriously dude...you need to think. Ok...you think I need to KNOW what you are going to do when you jump in? I just stated off the top of my head answers for what you brought up. You claimed it destroyed turtling...when what you brought up IS easy to defend against. They is no guard crush...so IF you attack I have NO need to try and parry...I don't even need to try an anti-air...I can literally do NOTHING and all I have to do is watch for the throw and block subsequently. Then I watch for the kara. Now some characters have some really nice ways of attacking from the air like low cross-up spin kicks and nice toe dives...but generally you can do nothing and be safe. Seriously...I wasn't dissing...I really thing you must not have played ppl with good reflexes or against ppl that try and parry unnecessarily. Here let me quote you... "I must have forgotten! You'd be reading my mind all the while we're playing! So you'd know exactly when I was going to do what!" I don't think that you realized that I would not HAVE to know...I could simply watch and react...by doing nothing. Why would I have to read your mind? And yeah...I'm sure you'd think I was had I played you. Calling me a moron? I think I've proven that wrong at least a few times:P This has gotten nowhere. You got contradicted and didn't like it...no need to get nasty...argue your point like you have an intelligent perspective...calling me names gets you nowhere. Not that I mind...but it tells me that you couldn't actually argue the point. Apoc. Posted by Dr. Deelite on 05:02:2001 08:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by ShinEFF Oh my god... I must have forgotten! You'd be reading my mind all the while we're playing! So you'd know exactly when I was going to do what! Hell, I guess trying to do 'moves' against you is stupid too.. You'll just "block them all", or parry them since you know EXACTLY what I'm going to do and when.. Get real moron. No need to be an ass. Good players - Hsien, mopreme, Cali people Apoc mentioned - tech throw on reaction. If they just block your jump-in, you do no damage. Then you try and throw, and they tech it. Or you jump in with nothing, and try and throw, and they tech it. You should get real. Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 09:27 PM: Weird...I got an email saying Sabin replied here...so I'm here...no Sabin? Wtf...bummer Apoc. Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 09:35 PM: it would be really lame if for some reason Sabin's posts are eliminated...I've heard he's banned from irc...but if SRK is political like that...I'd leave. Any ideas why "I" would get an email saying Sabin posted here but then I follow the link and there's no Sabin post? Any ideas? Apoc. Posted by Sabin on 05:02:2001 09:39 PM: apoc, i deleted my post. don't worry, i didn't really have anything constructive to say. the entire post was nothing but: "......." don't worry, i'm writing up the real post now. - arturo Posted by omni on 05:02:2001 09:40 PM: i didnt really have anything constructive to say so i deleted it Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com www.shoryuken.com Posted by lost4evr on 05:02:2001 09:43 PM: I can't beleive some of this nonsense I'm reading! MvsC2 is an AMAZING game don't get it confused. And true THERE ARE 30-40-50-60+ hit combos but whatever, the versus series is an evolution in the direction of fighting game mechanics. SF3 series IS ALSO an evolution in fighting game mechanics as well. What capcom tried to do with SF3 mechanics is create a more interactive experience in terms of certain conditions that exist in fights real or fantasy i.e. parries or whatever other little features anyone thinks applies that is in the game. What they tried to do was to take the mechanics in the direction of a grungy street fight b'twn 2 expert fighters that had 2 different or complimenting styles. Thats why not everyone had a juggle or death combo, they were distributed b'twn the characters as per their style's. for example Ibuki. she had the juggle game down in her the way she was programmed to be played. Another example Ryu, The only game he really has is not even a stylish one but would entirely effective if played right but still did every character have a juggle/death combo game...no. And to me thats what makes SF3 series an evolution and if you throw skilled parries in the mix...WHOA! As for MvsC2 they expanded the distance vertically/horizontally on the boards and every character is programmed to take advantage of that aspect of the game mechanics one way or the other. Now where the complexity gets involved is that the characters all have their own little ways of occupying that vertical/horizontal factor. essentially yes it is the same thing but it is accomplished differently, in terms of the combos it seems to me that most of the traps/combos performed in practical competition by GOOD players an average or scrubby player WOULDN'T EVEN SEE COMING! So in that way it's almost like speed chess considering that you have to already laid your game out in your mind before you play and that in itself is VERY CHALLENGING and I'm not talking infinites either. Most of the time in that game at high-level play if you f*ck up just ONCE it's over because you get "the trap" or "the setup" performed on you. With SF3 series you can quickly turn the tide on the game someone "had already laid out their head" against by means of the parry{also keep in mind progressive hit-frame detection too}so anything can happen and change at very rapid pace. Bottom line THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT GAMES ENTIRELY and I don't think it's right to say one or the other sucks becuz I'm willing to bet that every person here has spent AT LEAST $15 on playing them both, but I gotta tell you the only way I can recept an opinion from anybody is if they have spent at least{yes}$70-$150 on playing these games otherwise you either have it at home{god bless those who do or you don't really know enough about the mechanics of the game to have some sort of founded opinion.{But I love all of you Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 09:49 PM: quote: Originally posted by omni i didnt really have anything constructive to say so i deleted it Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com www.shoryuken.com Thanx fellas...I've seen some REALLY lame stuff in the past but I apologize for jumping the gun. Apoc. Posted by Sabin on 05:02:2001 10:01 PM: okay, now for my post. sorry about the confusion apoc you said turtling is king in 3s, but I dont really agree. Granted, turtling in 3s works wonders (cause you can crouch and tech everything on reaction).. but in the long run (with some exceptions, like q for example,) it isnt gonna get you anywhere. at all. for example..youve seen the usa vs jap vid right? with the exception of ricky, the q player, and Raoh/Ohnuki, the 2 chunli players, they are SUPER offensive in 3s, from what I saw on the tape. Even Raoh/Ohnuki's Chun-Li's ONLY turtle when they don't have meter...when they do, they rush that shit down with kara throws, stand rh, low fwd super, and various "crouching" tricks (like when you're knocked down, they tap down on the stick really fast - she keeps canceling her crouching animation into her standing animation and it's hard to tell what she's gonna do next. It's weird.) And look at Daigo's style of play..super offensive and he just uppercuts that shit. lol. i also remember the yun player being ULTRA offensive as well. the biggest turtle on team usa was hsien. and what happened? the biggest turtle got the worst beatdown imo (no offense to you hsien :P) none of hsiens turtlish tactics were working...even his defensive air fb's would get supered right through. i can see why you think 3s is a turtle fest tho..up until i saw usa vs japan, i thought the exact same thing as well, but japan (for the most part) just rushes that shit down. i learned the hard way...youve seen me play apoc, by definition I am a HARDCORE turtle. hell wtf ppl at chinatown call me arturtle still in 3s i am a turtle too..and what happened when i finally played someone good (like hsien?) I got fucking raped. Hard. He rushed me down, I didn't. Granted, I never had any experience against Yun - (or how to defend against shadow super, for example) I never played against a REALLY good Yun player in CF. But I still got rushed down, regardless. he didn't even turtle against me with his akuma..he rushed me down too. I did better in that fight, a lot of rounds were close..but i still lost without winning a game. imo I still think chun beats akuma, but i was lacking things in my game that held me back - like i didnt kara throw hsien at all (too scared to try) and i didn't master robotic l.fwd -> super with Chun on reaction. Hsien just rushed me down with a billion divekicks and air fb's (although i should have learned to super through them..oh well.) after a beatdown like that, it makes me want to learn how to play a offensive style in 3s. - arturo Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 10:11 PM: quote: Originally posted by Sabin okay, now for my post. sorry about the confusion apoc you said turtling is king in 3s, but I dont really agree. Granted, turtling in 3s works wonders (cause you can crouch and tech everything on reaction).. but in the long run (with some exceptions, like q for example,) it isnt gonna get you anywhere. at all. for example..youve seen the usa vs jap vid right? with the exception of ricky, the q player, and Raoh/Ohnuki, the 2 chunli players (again, they only turtle until they have meter, then they go super offensive with kara throws/low fwds/stand rh etc. And look at Daigo's style of play..super offensive and he just uppercuts that shit. lol. i also remember the yun player being ULTRA offensive as well. the biggest turtle on team usa was hsien. and what happened? the biggest turtle got the worst beatdown imo (no offense to you hsien :P) none of hsiens turtlish tactics were working...even his defensive air fb's would get supered right through. i can see why you think 3s is a turtle fest tho..up until i saw usa vs japan, i thought the exact same thing as well, but japan (for the most part) just rushes that shit down. Sounds dope...unfortunately I haven't seen the vids at all Is SRK planning to sell them? How come so few players have the tapes? But seeing as how I don't have the tapes...is there anyway to get any match analysis? Apoc. Posted by Sabin on 05:02:2001 10:15 PM: apoc, i edited my post, go back and read it. sorry about that. - arturo Posted by Sabin on 05:02:2001 10:18 PM: oh yeah..abt the tapes. you remember that kikin went to japan, right? he taped the entire 3s tourny with his camcorder. and it's been spreading around to other players..when i was down in florida, the fl players had it (i think they got it from DreamTR or something? I dunno) i don't have the tapes ON me right now, but if you want, i could hook you up with a copy, or direct you to someone who can. Or if you come to ECC6 (any chance of you going?) I could give them to you directly. - arturo Posted by EDDIE WILLIAMS on 05:02:2001 10:25 PM: Offensive and unpredictable...after a couple of my first tourneys I've learned alot with my characters. Hey Sabin are you going to UH tourney on the 19th. 3s has its own originality of gameplay. If you like it, play it (it is a hard game to master compared to other fighters) If you don't like it, don't bother because you won't get good at it. You have to be intrested in the game to have fun with. If you don't like the game you will never find nothing new. Posted by Sabin on 05:02:2001 10:32 PM: Eddie: No, I can't go, cuz it's not a major tourney :P Seriously tho, I can't go cause I'll be in Cali that week for E3. Plus I can't just fly all across the nations for random tourneys, hehe..if it's a big one, I'm there tho. I have too many trips to make this summer anyway. Going to E3, going to chicago for Midwest Championships, then I'm heading back to Cali again for b5. Ugh, I'm too addicted to SF :P - arturo Posted by Apoc on 05:02:2001 10:33 PM: quote: Originally posted by Sabin oh yeah..abt the tapes. you remember that kikin went to japan, right? he taped the entire 3s tourny with his camcorder. and it's been spreading around to other players..when i was down in florida, the fl players had it (i think they got it from DreamTR or something? I dunno) i don't have the tapes ON me right now, but if you want, i could hook you up with a copy, or direct you to someone who can. Or if you come to ECC6 (any chance of you going?) I could give them to you directly. - arturo Gracias I'm kinda retired at the moment...ya know how burn out goes. More fun talking than playing ya know. I mean...the arcade here is like a 24 hour hang out...so after years of same ppl same shit...and still going there just to hang out...lol the last thing I feel like doing is actually practicing. And I let ppl use my stick and 6 button pad...both came back busted...so even if I get bored at home the dc stays off:/ Been to too many tourneys when I'm not practicing...nuff of that:/ If no one from ec was going to b5 I would prolly go just to visit and kick...but I figure there will be a party at b5...everyone will be THERE...so if I go anywhere it'll be there. However...heheh I am getting talked into Midwest And my place there is secure...no hotel fees...so that's possible. But I'm not playing anything seriously at the moment...homies like a3 still, so I play when I kick but that's all shoto matches...everyday all day...ugh. lol ya know. A lil mvc2 and absolutely ZERO cvs. I'm concentrating on moving...(guess where to and then I'll start playing again...hopefully before B5. Either way you GOTTA go to b5! Drag Eddie too. Make him practice up some after school Either way I look forward to hanging with you again. Peace Posted by sayiajin1 on 05:03:2001 01:02 AM: well i admire everyone who plays the game. personally i think its deeper than cvs and alot more fun as well although i think cvs is ok. dont say that they cant be compared cause half the people on this board make comparisons to mvc2 and 3s. the point is everyone has a diffrent opinion. it seems like apoc is biased against it, just look at how many times hes posted in this topic but his points are valid. overall the game does make throws necessary. apoc maybe if you seen the us vs japan footage then youd change your mind a bit about it and might discover that you have a new found love for the game. im from nyc so its not hard to find comp for this game cause of cf. ive played against people like sabin, flash, and others. i also remember playing the green trench coat at the lockdown tourney. it can become as addictive as mvc2. also if hsien or anyone else would be so courteous to tell me the timing to linking standing fierce after a short hurricane kick. Posted by Muskau on 05:03:2001 01:19 AM: Let's see.... Apoc and Hsien say that they don't like 3S because they don't like the style of play, fair enough. Actually the SF3 series is probably THE most 3D like fighter that's actually IN 2D. There's no range game, same as a 3D game, and a close up game based on high, low, counters, parrying and throwing, sounds 3D to me. That's probably one reason so many 2D gamers dislike it. But I don't see how anyone can say 3S is crap, I mean the top players in the US say they don't play anymore because it's boring, and yet the top players in japan are still playing it and can't enough right? Are the top players in the US REALLY experts? I mean I don't even think the US get's enough competition to have expert players since the US got beaten so badly at the US vs Japan tourney. Did any japanese player at the US vs. Japan tourney say "Oh 3S sucks all's I do is throw out random stuff and add throws here and there, and now I'm national champion!" That's exactly what a beginner would do if he was fighting some intermiedate player who just discovered the 'power' of parries. Which is what I think almost all of the people posting are. (no offence) So if you guys really are expert players, just go to an arcade in japan, tell the guy next to you your an expert and that 3S is a load of boring kara throws and poking and that's all you'll ever need, and then proceed to kiss your ass goodbye. Oh by the way say they got rid of parrying in the SF3 series, oh look! It's just transformed into SF2!!! amazing! If you think that tricking someone into jumping into your shoryuken by using a hadoken is what you like, go and play SF2, if you think that trapping someone with 3 guys is what you like, go play MvsC2, just stop whining. Posted by Kamui on 05:03:2001 02:10 AM: "Let's see.... Apoc and Hsien say that they don't like 3S because they don't like the style of play, fair enough." Hsien said nothing fo the sort, Apoc and myself did. Hsien is defending 3s. "Did any japanese player at the US vs. Japan tourney say "Oh 3S sucks all's I do is throw out random stuff and add throws here and there, and now I'm national champion!" That's exactly what a beginner would do if he was fighting some intermiedate player who just discovered the 'power' of parries. Which is what I think almost all of the people posting are. (no offence) " Im quite positive you have no idea what the better japanese players think of the game nor do I. Its also a fact that most players will play any fighter as long as there is plenty of competition for the game, no matter how bad the game is, CvS bieng a good example. "Are the top players in the US REALLY experts? I mean I don't even think the US get's enough competition to have expert players since the US got beaten so badly at the US vs Japan tourney." We didnt get beaten that badly. Ive seen the videos of the matches that has been floating around and we did not get beaten that badly, %80 of the games were fairly close. However the japanese are still very much superior to the US when it comes 3s, however that deosnt mean that team USA is blind when it comes to how the game is played, and they have enough experience to make a valid opinion. Posted by Muskau on 05:03:2001 03:06 AM: I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean I can just say that MvsC2 is crap but people just play it because it's got flashy combos? Because that doesn't really make any real point. It's just the same as saying 3S sucks cause I don't like the style of play. It all just boils down to what YOU like, what the majority likes. Most people like big flashy multi-hit combos done at the press of a button, I'm not arguing that. The only real point I've heard is "3S is boring at high level play because it's all about blah blah blah..." What does that REALLY mean, is it boring to you because you can't land your 15 hit juggle combo like you did on the scrub at the arcades? Or is it because you've see tourney footage and it looks boring to you? If it's the latter then your a scrub, if your the former then go play MvsC2 and stop whining about how 'bad' 3S is because YOU don't LIKE it's style of play. Stop ruining for other players who might be interested in 3S but are told not to play by 'experts' who don't like it anymore so they go play MvsC2. Posted by Apoc on 05:03:2001 04:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Muskau Let's see.... Apoc and Hsien say that they don't like 3S because they don't like the style of play, fair enough." You've been corrected there I think:P "Actually the SF3 series is probably THE most 3D like fighter that's actually IN 2D. There's no range game, same as a 3D game, and a close up game based on high, low, counters, parrying and throwing, sounds 3D to me. That's probably one reason so many 2D gamers dislike it." Interesting...I've looked at it similarly before. It may very well be true. But I think the majority of fighting game players can enjoy both. "But I don't see how anyone can say 3S is crap, I mean the top players in the US say they don't play anymore because it's boring, and yet the top players in japan are still playing it and can't enough right? Are the top players in the US REALLY experts? I mean I don't even think the US get's enough competition to have expert players since the US got beaten so badly at the US vs Japan tourney." Actually I don't think the US does have "experts" on this game. I may be offending ppl here but I'm just giving my honest opinion no matter how wrong it may be(gotta keep it real). Perhaps Hsien maybe? But even that's iffy. It all depends on what you'd call expert. Hsien may see a few experts at 3s here while I see maybe one. He thinks we have a ton of v-shoto experts in the US... and to me...that's a joke. How many shotos do well in tournaments? Only the best...and even the best does not mean expert. And in 3s...you'd be hard pressed to find an expert by my standards. There are many factors leading to this...but no I don't think we have ANY experts on 3s. Hsien would be the closest thing...but if he were an expert he would be able to offer more than he has...though I do believe he's witnessed a higher level...and it wasn't here, sadly. I think the reasons Omni gave were best here. "Did any japanese player at the US vs. Japan tourney say "Oh 3S sucks all's I do is throw out random stuff and add throws here and there, and now I'm national champion!" That's exactly what a beginner would do if he was fighting some intermiedate player who just discovered the 'power' of parries. Which is what I think almost all of the people posting are. (no offence) " The "power" of parries is obvious. But when it's beneficial to parry is not. Many non-beginners parry unnecessarily and that is why they lose...in fact there are many times when it's better to take the hit in the air rather than parry the attack. Is this strategy? Knowing the best thing to do? "So if you guys really are expert players, just go to an arcade in japan, tell the guy next to you your an expert and that 3S is a load of boring kara throws and poking and that's all you'll ever need, and then proceed to kiss your ass goodbye. " You say this from what knowledge? Though you're probably right...I'd be more likely to challenge on a different game:P "Oh by the way say they got rid of parrying in the SF3 series, oh look! It's just transformed into SF2!!! amazing!" Yes, amazing that you think that!!! No way in HELL it could turn into sf2 that way. Take away parries and it would become cvs without teams if anything. "If you think that tricking someone into jumping into your shoryuken by using a hadoken is what you like, go and play SF2, if you think that trapping someone with 3 guys is what you like, go play MvsC2, just stop whining." Who is whining? Only problems I had with 2i was akuma's dart kick and Ibuki's cr.short,cr.strong chain. Other than that the game was dope. And even with that it was fun. Just that Akuma's dart kick allowed just about any mediocre player to use him. Never had a prob with parries either. I listed my probs with the game...and perhaps once I see the videos I will love this game again...but know what? It won't be at any major tourneys on the west coast I think...and I play for competition mostly...otherwise I'm hanging out. If there are no tournaments for 3s...I would just be saddened after falling in love with the game. I'm not a player that enjoys sitting home and practicing. I like to pound ass and outside of a real tournament casual play isn't pounding ass. It's hanging out. Being friendly. 3s would still mean nothing to me unless we still held tournaments for it. And I understand why we don't...let's hear why we should. Apoc. Posted by oldirtygook on 05:03:2001 03:12 PM: Lack of competition. That can kill any game. Posted by m121akuma on 05:03:2001 07:17 PM: I think it's interesting how passionate people are about this subject. It really is your opinion about MvsC2 or 3S. So far I have yet to see any conclusions from this, but It's intersting to hear opinions from others. It's an argument that can't really be solved. It will just keep going until it slowly fades. All times are GMT. The time now is 09:49 PM. Show all 220 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.